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Handmade in Wherever: who really makes the saxophones you buy? (article link)

9K views 87 replies 31 participants last post by  olhonker 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Good article. Much of it summarizes views that have been cogently expressed here on SOTW in many discussions.

I agree with the suggestion of being skeptical about any brand that is not completely forthright about its place of origin. The country of principal tube and keywork fabrication (not assembly) should be engraved on the saxophones, and identified on the company's website and in its marketing materials as well.

I posted this Cannonball headquarters tour video in another thread, but here it is again. It's mildly interesting, but also a little disturbing because nowhere does it indicate that the instruments are actually manufactured in Taiwan, then shipped to Utah for engraving and final "acoustic customization." An uninformed viewer might think the Cannonball building is actually a saxophone factory, although none of the processes shown really amounts to even partially "making" a sax.

 
#3 ·
I posted this Cannonball headquarters tour video in another thread, but here it is again. It's mildly interesting, but also a little disturbing because nowhere does it indicate that the instruments are actually manufactured in Taiwan, then shipped to Utah for engraving and final "acoustic customization." An uninformed viewer might think the Cannonball building is actually a saxophone factory, although none of the processes shown really amounts to even partially "making" a sax.
I agree completely. I've always found it to be somewhat disingenuous by describing a product as "Made in the USA" when it's merely assembled here, or they make some adjustments to some things, etc, when every part of the horn is actually manufactured offshore, mainly because you know damn well that they are using that statement to get potential customers to feel good about what they're buying. I'm sure Cannonball employs a fair number of people in Utah, and that's great! You can still feel good about supporting a company who employs people in the US, without the false narrative, right?
 
#6 ·
"25 Employees in the Salt Lake City, Utah Facility and hundreds more commissioned in other countries, including 2 Cannonball factories in Taiwan."

These are the people that DON'T dirty their hands with shaping, soldering, and general manufacturing.



Thanks for sharing that, LC. If one is sufficiently skeptical, Cannonball is adequately transparent. But Matt's question remains: What of the naive parents of students looking for first instruments? Are they going to know to dig for information, or are they going to trust the local retailer, who is likely just as happy NOT to know the provenance of their goods?

Gads, now you've got me chasing down the bunny hole. "Big Bell Stone Series® and Vintage Reborn® Series are both professional saxophone models. The Big Bell Stone Series® Saxophones have a Big Bell®. Cannonball is the originator of the Big Bell®, which we developed to create a big, full, resonant sound." How the heck can one own the concept of a big bell? Really? Does the Buescher Top Hat & Cane not exist in their revisionist take on saxophone history?

<grrrrrrrrrrrrr> and <arggggggggghhhhhhhh>
 
#87 ·
Exactly, hit the about us button on their website and find "25 Employees in the Salt Lake City, Utah Facility and hundreds more commissioned in other countries, including 2 Cannonball factories in Taiwan"

Who is Cannonball leads to "While managing instrument production, she enjoys frequent communication with our partners in Taiwan, Germany and China"

This took me all of 45 seconds to find...The webpage doesn't open with "Proudly made in Taiwan", maybe it should...but not to difficult to find out.

Unfortunately, we are surrounded with sometimes misleading advertising. Buyer beware...
 
#7 ·
I am no fan of Cannonball (and their marketing), but their business-model makes me think of Selmer-Paris and their shipping of parts and completed saxophones to the U.S. and elsewhere for either assembly or engraving or lacquering, etc. I'm sure some can (and will) parse my thoughts about the similarities. DAVE
 
#9 ·
I am no fan of Cannonball (and their marketing), but their business-model makes me think of Selmer-Paris and their shipping of parts and completed saxophones to the U.S. and elsewhere for either assembly or engraving or lacquering, etc.
I'd say the business model is closer to the opposite, in terms of the public perception sought.

Selmer Paris saxophones always have been presented and perceived as French horns. For a while, it was also understood that your Selmer Paris Mark VI might have been fabricated in France and assembled in France, or fabricated in France but assembled and/or engraved in the United States. But either way, the instruments were crafted from raw brass in France, which fit the brand's image as a French company. No deception there, IMO.

Cannonball tries to present itself in many respects as an American horn, despite the fact that the fabrication from raw brass occurs in Taiwan, not in the U.S. The Taiwanese contribution to the final product is greatly downplayed, while the much smaller American contribution is emphasized. See the video I posted above. Why is there no "Cannonball Taiwan sax factory" video?
 
#11 ·
LostConn: Yes, that is all true. I've always viewed Cannonball as being somewhat deceitful in their model. But still, both instruments are made in one country, then assembled or finalized elsewhere (with CB, always; with Selmer, sometimes).

Remove the adoration and the deception from the equation and you have similar models. Again, I am not criticizing Selmer (I own several), only pointing out a similarity in business practices. Yes, there are differences in the way each company presents its products to the public. DAVE
 
#16 ·
Excellent article, lots of good info. I agree that the only problem with any of this is the lack of transparency.

Not to pick on P. Mauriat, who by all accounts make some good instruments. But the name of the company and the French tricolor on the case seems designed to imply that the horns are made in France. I'm sure that anybody who really wants to know can find the correct info online pretty quickly, but I also feel like it's a clear example of a company trying to create an image that is different from the reality. And obviously, Cannonball and others have done similar things.
 
#25 ·
Excellent article, lots of good info. I agree that the only problem with any of this is the lack of transparency.
Ditto.

It's all a function of trade law and gullible consumers. Trade laws are likely to get a shake-up in the next few years. As to gullible consumers, there was one born every minute when P.T. Barnum said that over 100 years ago. Now, it's one born every second.
The consumer is also in the driving seat. We want 5-digit Selmer-like horns for a fraction of the price. In the Peter Jessen G mezzo soprano thread there was a member who bemoaned the price of USD 10K for an instrument that is truly handmade while barely meeting the threshold for living wages. I also suspect that many customers are rather familiar with how companies put a spin on where their products are made. Is a BMW assembled in South Carolina really a high-end German car? Before anyone takes this the wrong way, I am not arguing that practices like those of Cannonball and Mauriat are acceptable. I prefer the transparency of Lien Chen, but they probably face an uphill battle in the western hemisphere with a name like that.
 
#20 ·
It's all a function of trade law and gullible consumers. Trade laws are likely to get a shake-up in the next few years. As to gullible consumers, there was one born every minute when P.T. Barnum said that over 100 years ago. Now, it's one born every second.

Country of origin labeling (COOL) is also over 100 years old, beginning in the US with the McKinley Tariff of 1890. As with any regulation, there are ways to get around it, even if it entails nonsense. One of the ways to do an end run was by using "value added." The importer adds 50% more value after the item enters the US, and it is no longer considered a foreign product (and can avoid tariffs and COOL requirements). This went on with mouthpieces for years. A woodwind business, say Woodwind Co. N.Y. orders some blanks from France. Some have the COOL stamp on them and some don't. WWCo. could easily claim that the facing value is greater than the blank value. Probably true in some cases, but it would depend on the amount of finishing that was done abroad. Rene Dumont "Paris" was the brand name of a U.S. wholesaler that bought pre-finished mouthpieces from US producers. "Paris" was probably claimed to be a model designation, not COOL compliance. In that case, using the word "Paris" was also hiding the country of origin, but the reverse of most, in that a "French" mouthpiece could fetch a better price.

Enter the gullible consumer. I watched part of the video posted above. First, I have to chuckle every time I hear about a Cannonball saxophone. Why that brand name? A cannonball doesn't seem particularly musical, in fact, it's just the opposite. Anybody? That's right, Julian Edward "Cannonball" Adderley. He died in 1975. He endorsed products for others but (I'm guessing here) probably didn't trademark his name or leave heirs willing to fight over the trade use of his name. The name "Cannonball" was up for grabs and exploitation.

Try marketing a made-in-Taiwan "Jimi" model guitar and you'll have a cease and desist letter in your email tomorrow from the legion of attorneys on retainer for the heirs of James Marshal "Jimi" Hendrix. And it's not the made-in-Taiwan part that is the problem. That's why I thought that marketing LesterSpit cork grease was funny (and perfectly legal). The name is available and there are no troublesome heirs. All I need is gullible consumers and no sense of personal shame. Check and check.

Which is the other funny part of the video. Maybe as part of adding U.S. manufacturing value to the Cannonball saxophone, the "pearls" are installed here? But they aren't really pearls. One of the options is "Spiderman Jasper pearls." Apparently they hadn't done the research to find out that their market demographic would pay more for "Hello Kitty pearls."

I love all aspects of marketing. Especially musical accessory merchandising.

Mark
 
#24 ·
From the article:

"As seems to be a near-universal human failure, short-term profits come at the expense of the long-term big picture."

This truth surfaces more and more as I get older and see more of the long-term ramifications of human behavior. It's a wise thing to keep in mind and applicable to everything from personal daily life to global social interaction. And it sure as hell applies to making and selling instruments. It also applies to making and selling music. A hit pop single that sells a million copies this year might be forgotten in three years, but "Kind of Blue" and "A Love Supreme" will be selling for decades.
 
#30 ·
Thanks Matt for the article! I got beaten blue for trying to say the same thing, just with the mistake of doing it in brand thread, I apologize for that so don't jump on me again whomever or I will hack your wife's computer haha. But serious, an importer of Asian products can have 500 people in sales and marketing, that doesn't mean that they can actually build things, but be sure you will have to pay for those 500 when buying anything they sell.
 
#31 ·
Thanks Matt for the article! I got beaten blue for trying to say the same thing
No. You said in the Eastman thread (among other things) that saxophones from the Big Four (specifically, according to you, Selmer, Yanagisawa, and Yamaha) are made in Taiwan. You had no evidence for that claim. You'll note that Stohrer's article clearly lists each of the Big Four as an independent manufacturer of saxophones: "Making an entire saxophone from scratch is difficult and expensive, and only a few places in the world make them from scratch, and only about 6-7 places (depending on how you count) make professional quality saxophones from scratch in any volume: Yamaha, Yanagisawa, Rampone & Cazzani, Benedikt Eppelsheim, Keilwerth, Selmer." (Emphasis in original.)

Thus, on this one point, Stohrer is saying the opposite of what you said.
 
#38 ·
Cannonball clearly advertises on their sight that their horns are made in Taiwan. People like to bash Cannonball on SOTW and praise other Taiwan made brands when they are all very similar. People who repair saxophones for a living are always going to promote vintage horns or expensive brands. That is because the cost of the overhaul makes the purchase of a horn made in Taiwan very appealing. It is the cost of labor that has the most effect on the cost of a saxophones. It is the cost of labor that makes some horns, even vintage ones, not worth repairing.
 
#43 ·
"And I don’t even have a problem with the idea of relatively cheap imported horn that doesn’t have a ton of value-add in it, as long as it is priced commensurate with its value and its origin is clear so the consumer knows what they are buying." From Matt Stohrer's article, "A Saxophone should be clear about its Origin".

My concern is that, even if a consumer knows the country of origin, does that really help very much in knowing what he/she is buying? I don't think so.
After the top 6 or 7 well established companies, the rest of the saxophones are made in numerous smaller parts and assembly factories in Taiwan, China and Vietnam. The quality varies widely, and therefore the consumer has to rely on a lot more detailed info and advice to really know what they are buying.
 
#44 ·
What I really want to know is this: How internally similar are these off-brand Chinese/Taiwanese horns?

There are so many random "boutique" brands that claim to be the next Mark VI, custom specced to sound like some holy-grail horn, yet inevitably when I try them out they all sound kinda the same.

I think Cannonball is fine, leaving aside their marketing. At least they say it somewhere. Some like Ishimori do everything in their power to fool you thinking it's not a China/Taiwan horn.
 
#45 ·
Nice read and I am happy to see that many seem to share what I have found for a long time.

Saxophone brands should always indicate where the goods are made.

Saxophone brands which claim the making or assembly should always show us the beef.

Also, when a brand claims to have acquired “ ownership” or refers to the production facilities in Asia as “ ours” there should be at least some sort of document showing an affiliation ( it is exceedingly difficult to part own a factory in China and even in Taiwan).

These are essential tools for the buyer because both are part of their marketing.

Having said this, there is nothing wrong with buying a product made in another country but knowing were this country is is an essential part of the information which we receive.

In most European countries when we go shopping at the supermarket for fruit and veg, the label or the box (in case it is not packaged) now says where the product comes from.


Anyway for those who live in the US maybe some is familiar with the FCA, False Claim Act?

I know that it probably doesn’t apply to these circumstances but does anyone think that it applies to saxophones too?
 
#46 ·
@milandro, the difference between food and consumer products regarding legislation is huge. There's is hardly any control involved importing saxophones, of the simple reason that the controlling agencies have to prioritize and focus on people's health.

And we as saxophone buyers doesn't seem to bother about quality control and all the aspects involved. If a brand just can put the horn in the hands of some pro we are prepared to pay top dollar. We saxophone consumers are stupid, do we even know of the horn is safe to play? Just look at the non existing environmental legislation in many Asian countries, we might even die in cancer by playing a Chinese horn, because they don't care about these things in China if the importer doesn't control this really careful.
 
#51 ·
I am very much aware of difference in legislations and by the way, I've worked in both sectors, so I am even more aware of these things than most.
Well then , you know that the legislators doesn't care about the industry, it's too small. It's up to us consumers to put the demands and buy from those brands that can meet our demands. I really do want to now what's behind the price tag and I'm not alone thinking like that AND the good thing is that we have a choice, but as Matt wrote in the article, it's way harder for beginners.
 
#52 ·
actually legislators of different parts of the world legislate differently on these matters and what was customary until yesterday can be changed tomorrow. There is no prohibition to do that!

I advocate a system of clarity which will identify each maker with a code of any product so that the consumer can actually identify the maker of any product.

It is all possible, legislators are not doing anything that is set in stone, laws are made to be made and changed.
 
#54 ·
consumers should all be more responsible for the way they choose to buy things.

Responsibility is, of course, something that starts with information.

Research has shown that buying cheap products makes the consumer feel void of responsibility in other words the less a product costs the less anyone is asking oneself questions about the purchase.

However I found (on another forum) that I have been bitterly attacked for questioning the “ need” to buy the latest camera for those who don’t even have abilities to ( even remotely) have found the limits of the camera they own already.

And these are items costing thousands.


Many there used the words “ freedom to buy whatever I want and pleases me” and yes, indeed this is the case, but consumerism is a sword that cuts in many more ways than two.

I for one am against buying items that aren’t worth being repaired because their cost is lower than the cost to repair them.

As said very often, the second largest purchase for any of us, a vehicle, is these days easily declared total loss because it costs so much (in labor more than parts) to repair it .

This is ridiculous.

I see also more and more saxophones bought for $250 that will never be repaired because repairs are at least double of their buying price.
 
#58 ·
Very informative post. I recently purchased a used Cannonball after doing some online research on the brand. It took me less than 5 minutes with google to discover that the saxs are made in Taiwan so I don't think they're hiding this fact very well if that's their intention. In this age of globalization finding the true country of origin is always going to be an issue with any product we buy today. Many consumers don't care about that and are only interested in the price and quality of the item.
 
#59 ·
In this age of globalization finding the true country of origin is always going to be an issue with any product we buy today. Many consumers don't care about that and are only interested in the price and quality of the item.
However many people do not like globalization, and favour protectionism - so an item made in one's own country can have a lot of added value to quite a lot of people.
 
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