In spite of doing long tones with overtones, I am not making progress on getting overtones. A teacher I'm taking from who teaches multiple woodwinds but who started out on sax suggested that the heavy metal of these older saxes makes it hard to get altissimo register. He's addressing other issues with me, which I am glad to improve on. Maybe it's just too soon for me to get these, but if my sax will never do them, that would be useful to know. Anyone with experience along this line? I've played sax for seven years (after already being well-versed as a flutist) but only started taking sax lessons this summer.
This might sound harsh, but your teacher is an idiot if he tells you "the heavy metal makes it hard to get altissimo." He clearly has no idea what he's doing. Dump him ASAP.
If you're a beginning player, do not worry about getting altissimo notes. Focus on being able to play consistently in tune, learn tunes, do etudes, learn all your scales, etc....altissimo will come in time.
This might sound harsh, but your teacher is an idiot if he tells you "the heavy metal makes it hard to get altissimo." He clearly has no idea what he's doing. Dump him ASAP.
If you're a beginning player, do not worry about getting altissimo notes. Focus on being able to play consistently in tune, learn tunes, do etudes, learn all your scales, etc....altissimo will come in time.
I'm not beginning. I have a music ed degree. I think I'd describe my sax ability as intermediate. I'm a musical player, and I'm doing well on the etudes, scales, tuning. I needed help on vibrato, so that's the thing he's focusing on in addition to continuing to do things out of the Universal Method for Saxophone, letting me know fingering options. To clarify, I think he also said something about the bore being smaller on more modern instruments, so maybe that part of his explanation makes more sense...not sure. Which is why I'm posting...
There is nothing on any kind of vintage sax that will prevent you from getting altissimo notes. Bore size doesn't change anything. There are tons of pro players who can get ridiculous altissimo with big bore saxophones. The more important thing is your airstream, throat and tongue positions, and correct fingerings.
The fact your teacher would make those statements makes me believe he doesn't know a thing about saxophones. Just observation.
Wowee ... I don't play a Buescher. But I have several Conn 6M altos of similar vintage, and they are the easiest horns to get altissimo notes on. For me.
Those are "heavy" too. Sounds like bad information to me.
1) you need a new saxophone teacher
2) the Buescher Arisicrats are not especially heavy horns. I believe there are many modern horns that are actually heavier, not that weight matters.
3) personally I play a 1941 Buescher Aristocrat and it has the easiest altissimo of any alto I've ever played.
Worth repeating: As J.Max says above, the early Buescher Aristocrats are the preferred horn of the Rascherites (is that a word?), and to them overtones are just higher normal notes.
I'll take a more middle road.
1. You can keep your teacher
2. Don't listen to him when he says things like this...he is 100% wrong.
3. Maybe you should reconsider item 1.
A teacher I'm taking from who teaches multiple woodwinds but who started out on sax suggested that the heavy metal of these older saxes makes it hard to get altissimo register. .
I remember reading a thread where members compared the weight of horns and the conclusion was that the Buescher was actually one of the lightest! Just for the record. My guess is you just need to explore different throat positions or different fingerings. Also playing scales on the mouthpiece alone might help too. Nothing wrong with the horn itself, if there's no big issue with the octave vents.
Bueschers are fantastic. But like any other saxophone the thing must not have any leak. If it has a leak you probably have a lot of problems playing altissimo. If you play louder and/or higher,put the mouthpiece further in the mouth and play the heart of the reed.
I'll write in defence of the Buescher as well. As long as it's in good adjustment, the horn should be fantastic in the higher registers. Indeed, Sigurd Rascher mastered altissimo on a Buescher. Bueschers are great because they blow evenly and feel consistent across the registers. Also, a modern Yamaha or Selmer should be a heavier horn, not that it's a factor at all....
One thing with altissimo is that because you are basically playing false fingerings, it only starts to happen for you once you learn what it "feels" like to play in that register. It's an unusual sensation at first and can be felt on the bottom lip and in the throat. It takes playing around with stuff to get there. Having an experienced teacher comment on your progress in the moment helps a lot!
This also means that starting chromatically or diatonically up from high F (i.e. F# or G) isn't always the best place to start. I'd try and get used to just playing one single note in that register, but one that's a bit easier. A high A is not a bad place to start because it doesn't rely on complicated venting such as a high F# or G (although on alto, crunch fingerings are often better for high G). Once you're comfortable with that, try expanding your altissimo register slowly upwards and downwards from there, but not until you're comfortable and not biting. There's no pressure, after all.
You might want to check the opening on your front F mechanism too to make sure that it isn't going too far. This usually helps with altissimo performance.
Thanks for the advice on actually getting altissimo. I will add it to my mental wondering and it may help! The feedback from a teacher who knows altissimo well in the studio would help me immensely, I think. I'm an aural learner for new techniques, and there's only so much Youtube can do. Now...I hope I can somehow be encouraging to my present teacher and fellow musician when I talk about my needs with him. He is a good musician, but plays brass currently. He was helpful in letting me know my vibrato needed shifting to a more purely saxophonist production at least, and pointed me to good sax books. I do feel I need someone who demos on sax, though. A friend of mine thought she might be able to find me a doctoral student at the university.
I am a weak altissimo player, and I can tell you that the Bueschers I have infrequently played have the easiest and most in tune altissimo notes of any sax I have ever played. This is their reputation as well: that they have the most accurate series of overtones of any sax.
If you can't get overtones on a Buescher Aristocrat in reasonable repair, it is flat impossible the horn is the problem.
You may be playing a mouthpiece that is a poor acoustic match. In my case, moving from a small chamber Vandoren to a Meyer on my Conn baritone caused all the overtones and altissimo notes to come alive. The installed length of the Meyer is about an inch less than that of the Vandoren (in other words, with the MP placed for best overall pitch of the horn, the distance from a reference point (you pick; I used the location of the octave vent) to the tip of the MP is about an inch less). If you are using a MP with a much smaller chamber than the instrument was designed for, you will probably be pulling way out, which will throw the scale proportions off. This can make overtones and altissimo notes very difficult to obtain.
I am a weak altissimo player, and I can tell you that the Bueschers I have infrequently played have the easiest and most in tune altissimo notes of any sax I have ever played. This is their reputation as well: that they have the most accurate series of overtones of any sax.
If you can't get overtones on a Buescher Aristocrat in reasonable repair, it is flat impossible the horn is the problem.
You may be playing a mouthpiece that is a poor acoustic match. In my case, moving from a small chamber Vandoren to a Meyer on my Conn baritone caused all the overtones and altissimo notes to come alive. The installed length of the Meyer is about an inch less than that of the Vandoren (in other words, with the MP placed for best overall pitch of the horn, the distance from a reference point (you pick; I used the location of the octave vent) to the tip of the MP is about an inch less). If you are using a MP with a much smaller chamber than the instrument was designed for, you will probably be pulling way out, which will throw the scale proportions off. This can make overtones and altissimo notes very difficult to obtain.
I have a plastic Buescher mpc I could try moving back to, but the Morgan Excalibur 6M I'm using gives me easier high notes and tunes well across the registers in general, so maybe it's not a mismatch. I'll experiment with the white Buescher mpc again It's been awhile since I used it.
Find another teacher. Don't obsess over altissimo. Develop your overtones.
If you've been "playing" the saxophone for seven years, coming from a flute background, there may be many habits to correct for good saxophone technique. I question whether your multi-wind teacher (currently playing brass), has a good sense of a saxophone embouchure (vs all other woodwinds).
You are so right. I was hoping being able to play altissimo now would improve my overtones, but no. They are just the same as before. It must be a different technique, which just mystifies me. The way people describe it sounds the same. But I'm glad to have the altissimo now!
I can get the 2nd one (the 5th above the octave, I assume is called the 2nd). I can get it easily until D is the fundamental. I can occasionally get it on the D. The only way to get it on the Eb is to play the fifths ascending up, starting on C# until I can get the Eb one, and I try to hold it for as long as I can before it breaks. It's frustrating to not appear to get better. I can play 6 overtones on my flute, stopping on the 7th, and sometimes can get the last octave. So much easier to do that with all lips than with a reed involved... I love how people suggest just to work on overtones, but I've hit a brick wall.I'll see my teacher at the music store today and let him know it will be just this lesson and one more that I'll take. (The store wants 2 weeks' notice for discontinuing, which I understand the principle behind, and don't want to be a pain.) I want to try to learn what I can from him in these last two lessons.
Still haven't gotten my new teacher, but I've been combing through everything posted here on tone and altissimo and following the links. Tonight, using a softer, can reed, and voicing less like a classical singer and more like a casual amateur, I got my altissimo notes. Quite happy. Thanks for all the good advice!
Oh, hurray! A sax teacher from the junior college is going to take me on as a student, so I may not have to post as many questions in the future. I know he's a good teacher, because as sax friend who plays great took from him and learned lots.
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