What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn" - Page 2

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  1. #21
    Distinguished Member and Bass Sax Extraordinaire Helen's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorns Bergenson View Post
    Some of the stencils in my collection not mentioned in your chart:
    • "E.K. Blessing - Artist - Elkhart Ind", tenor, early Buescher Aristocrat stencil (your site only has the Blessing listed under Martin)
    • "Rocket", tenor, early Buescher Aristocrat stencil
    • "Peate's Music House", (yes, that's "Peate's"), soprano and alto, Martin stencils and I also had an alto that was a King stencil
    • "Melody Master", tenor, Buescher stencil (your site only has Melody Master listed under Martin)
    • "MW" Montgomery Ward, altos and tenors, both Martin and Buescher and possibly Elkhart Band Instrument Co. since some have a mix of different manufacturer's parts
    • "Recording King", alto, Martin stencil
    • "Zenith", tenor, Buescher stencil
    • "William Frank - Chicago", alto, Martin stencil
    Thank you. What an extensive stencil collection you have. Some pretty obscure names there at that. Nice.
    One day the bass saxophone will make a comeback, and rule the earth
    Bassic Sax (The website) Just Your Bassic Blog (The weblog: part of the website, but updated daily) Bassic Sax Pix (Lots of pretty sax photos)

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  3. #22
    Distinguished SOTW Member rsclosson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    I love my Dorado, which is actually a vintage Yanagisawa.
    1973 Dorado 500 T-4 (Yanagisawa); Onyxite PPT with Gold Bay ligature
    Rico Metalite M9; vintage Selmer ligature
    Yamaha YAS-52; MacSax Aura Mouthpiece; Gold Bay Ligature

  4. #23
    Distinguished SOTW Member artstove's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    Quote Originally Posted by Helen View Post
    Actually, I must admit I'm totally confused by this: Were they all really? Or was it only the latter ones that were left in the factory? I wish Kim (doctor sax.biz) would have a decent search feature on his site. He has so many great pages--but unless you know they exist, they are not accessible.

    Just as an aside, a friend of mine has a Vito Kenosha alto as well that I took a bunch of pics of a few months ago. It is a surprisingly good little player.
    I like my Vito Kenosha - my wife bought it years ago at an auction in West Virginia. It has a nice, rich tone and very solid construction. One odd detail is that the neck socket has a rubber O-ring in it (to improve the seal, I assume). Yes, it seemed to me when I asked about it before that Kim Slava and JayePDX knew the most about it. It very clearly says "Kenosha" on it.

  5. #24

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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    I'm curious about something...the term 'second line' (referring to a lower priced/lesser quality instrument actually marketed by the manufacturer) is quite common, I've also heard the term 'third line' bandied about (albeit rarely)...Is there really such a thing as a 'third line' for the major manufacturers from the first half of the 1900's? If so, I'd be curious just to see a simple listing of the primary manufacturer followed by their second/third line brand names...ie. Conn/Pan American/???.

  6. #25
    TrueTone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    Quote Originally Posted by 1958SelmerMarkVI View Post
    I'm curious about something...the term 'second line' (referring to a lower priced/lesser quality instrument actually marketed by the manufacturer) is quite common, I've also heard the term 'third line' bandied about (albeit rarely)...Is there really such a thing as a 'third line' for the major manufacturers from the first half of the 1900's? If so, I'd be curious just to see a simple listing of the primary manufacturer followed by their second/third line brand names...ie. Conn/Pan American/???.
    Conn/Pan-Am/Cavalier.
    Additionally, King had the American Standard either below or above the Cleveland line at that time.

  7. #26

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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueTone View Post
    Conn/Pan-Am/Cavalier.
    Additionally, King had the American Standard either below or above the Cleveland line at that time.
    Ahh...I wasn't sure if those third line brand names ran currently with the second line names mentioned, or if they were alternate second line names at a differnent time. Obviously not too much interest in those instruments, so frankly I've never investigated it that much. What about Buescher and Martin...did they also have a third line?

  8. #27
    Distinguished SOTW Member Stocker's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    American Standard was below Cleveland. H.N. White briefly even had a "fourth-line" brand, Gladiator, but its lineup never included saxophones. Bundy was technically a "third-line" as well, being below Selmer Paris and Signet. Buescher had a Windsor line below Elkhart but they're few and far between; Martin never had a "third-line".

    Quote Originally Posted by Helen View Post
    Thank you... You are a wealth of knowledge. How do you know all of this stuff?
    Often times it's a matter of buying an instrument whose age or provenance I can't pin down, so I can't help but research it. And when every answer brings with it another question, it's liable to send me off on a marginally-related tangent (and, occasionally, to buying more instruments!). Stencils have actually proved to be very helpful when a prominent brand (i.e. Wurlitzer, Gretsch, Olds) changes manufacturers a few times; the ones whose serials have known dates help to narrow down those that don't.
    Martin & Conn saxophones
    Leblanc, Pedler, Bettoney, & H.N. White clarinets

  9. #28
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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    also consider

    King Super 20 - King Zephyr - King Cleveland ...1-2-3

    Buescher 400 - Buescher 'Crat - Elkhart (20/30A) .....1-2-3 (if you add Windsor then they had 1-2-3-4 actually)

    as already mentioned:

    Conn Artist (or Wonder) - Pan American - Cavalier ....1-2-3

    (I suppose for both Martin and Conn if you care to consider the Magna and Connqueror lines....you could also make that argument)
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

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  10. #29

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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    How about Beaugnier?

  11. #30
    Distinguished Member and Bass Sax Extraordinaire Helen's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    I want to thank everyone who participated to date. I think I have everyone's stencil name input now either on the page already, or on my Excel spreadsheet at least. Next I have to finish up the research on the German horns I still need to do before I update the page again.
    One day the bass saxophone will make a comeback, and rule the earth
    Bassic Sax (The website) Just Your Bassic Blog (The weblog: part of the website, but updated daily) Bassic Sax Pix (Lots of pretty sax photos)

  12. #31
    Distinguished Member and Bass Sax Extraordinaire Helen's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    Quote Originally Posted by JayePDX View Post
    also consider

    King Super 20 - King Zephyr - King Cleveland ...1-2-3

    Buescher 400 - Buescher 'Crat - Elkhart (20/30A) .....1-2-3 (if you add Windsor then they had 1-2-3-4 actually)

    as already mentioned:

    Conn Artist (or Wonder) - Pan American - Cavalier ....1-2-3

    (I suppose for both Martin and Conn if you care to consider the Magna and Connqueror lines....you could also make that argument)
    Good idea Jaye... I'm seeing the model names as a different chart though. Talk about a boatload of work though... I'm wondering if that wouldn't be more work than compiling stencil names.
    One day the bass saxophone will make a comeback, and rule the earth
    Bassic Sax (The website) Just Your Bassic Blog (The weblog: part of the website, but updated daily) Bassic Sax Pix (Lots of pretty sax photos)

  13. #32
    Forum Contributor 2015 DetroitDave's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's a "Stencil" or "Second Line Horn"

    Quote Originally Posted by 1958SelmerMarkVI View Post
    I had a Wolverine alto once that was a stencil of a Conn. Whoever marketed that brand name must have bought horns from multiple companies over the years (not at all uncommon).
    Pan American made some horns with the Wolverine moniker. Here's a C-melody recently posted to Badenia's sticky "Pan American Serial Number Dating Study" post (now 17 pages long!) in the Conn section.

    https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...=1#post2820105

    The OP posted several photos a few posts below that one.

    Cheers!

    Not Responsible.
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