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Tone Production Part II By Phil Barone

119K views 179 replies 81 participants last post by  billpf 
#1 ·
This is part II of the tone production exercises I learned from Joe Allard and Victor Morosco. I’ve also added the idea of purchasing a very large tip opening mouthpiece to warm up on to teach you to use your diaphragm. However, you can do more harm than good if you use a hard reed on a very open mouthpiece and it may cause you to become tight.

Contrary to popular belief, the saxophone is best played with a very loose embouchure in order to let the reed “float”. I’ve studied the Larry Teal method which is very different and having made mouthpieces for so long I believe the Allard method was best. There will always be some tightness and jaw movement no matter what you do and there have been plenty of players that didn’t subscribe to this method that sounded great but there are many variables and nothing is unequivocal, especially in art where anything can go.
However, we'll never know if so-and-so might have sounded better if he had used a different method. Maybe it might have made him more comfortable enabling him to play his ideas more freely.


So, for those of you who want to challenge me or post things to the contrary as in part I, please don’t, it will only add to confusion to players trying to grasp these exercises. Many players struggle with intonation, mouthpieces, and embouchure so if you feel a need to post something opposing my views please start a separate thread. I think many players struggle because of the very different opinions they hear and from watching players. However, I think a lot of us feel as though we should be tight around the embouchure because for example when you watch a player they may seem to be suffering especially when playing loud and the veins in their forehead may protrude while there muscles around their mouth grow taught and they may turn red in the face. Well, this is natural if the player is playing especially loud because if the player didn’t tighten up, the mouthpiece would come out of their mouth as a result of blowing loud, okay?

So I’ll add that it’s not necessary to get obsessed with the exercises, as someone pointed out in part I Sonny played incorrectly, so they say but nevertheless sounded incredible. In fact, I think Sonny may have had the greatest sound of all time on the Live at the Village Vanguard albums. I will add though, having worked for Sonny, he seems to do everything correctly, he takes in LOTS of mouthpiece. So a couple of pointers before we proceed.

1. Remember that you can’t take too much mouthpiece in. You shouldn’t choke but try to pass the point that the facing starts on the rails of the mouthpiece, an inch for tenor, ¾ for alto. That’s the teeth should be past that, not the lips. At first, this will be uncomfortable and the sound may be crass and hard to control but be mindful and you will persevere.

2. The only pressure on the reed should be with the bottom teeth through the lip USING THE JAW MUSCLES, NOT THE MUSCLES IN YOUR FACE. It should just be enough to FEEL the reed through the lower lip. Any more than that and you begin to close the tip opening of the mouthpiece off. If you have to do this, then it’s time to get a new mouthpiece but not from me.



3. The last thing I’ll add is that you can break rules but first I suggest getting familiar with the exercises as they are, okay. Or I’ll come and burn your house down.

So, I'm challenged by the limited manner in which I can notate so I'll use words. The first part or section are all open C# until the end when you slur down to C natural. This is the whole exercise and you’ll just continuing down chromatically. The syllable HUH is used with no tongue and the syllable TA is a fast hard staccoto. You should be blowing hard using your diaphragm feeling is move as you blow.

OPEN C# FOR TWO EIGHTH NOTES FOLLOWED BY TWO STRONG STACATTO EIGHTHS FOLLOWED BY ONE STRONG STACCOTO HALF NOTE

SECTION (MEASURE) ONE STARTS HERE:

HUH HUH (EIGHTHS) TA TA (EIGHTHS) TAAA (HALF)
First measure ends

SECTION (MEASURE) TWO STARTS HERE:

TA TA TA TA (EIGHTHS) TATATATATATATATA (SIXTEENTHS)

TAAA (QUARTER) THEN SLUR TO C NATURAL AAAA (QUARTER) FOLLOWED BY QUARTER REST.

Then, start the whole exercise on C natural and work your way down to low B flat. I suggest getting the rhythm in your head on just the C# and C natural notes before you proceed. This will build your confidence. After you feel comfortable, you can start the entire exercise on any note. Phil
 
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#27 ·
Ike Webkins said:
Hi Phil

Good news this part II

Also thanks to the other contributors as well.

Phil, you know I am more a "middle of the road guy", and the only large tip mouthpiece I have is a Rico metallite M9 (0,115" tip) with a high flat baffle. Is this piece suitable for the exercise?

By the way, the Ltd Hollywood is THE metal piece for me:) congratulation for the design, it's a delight to play this piece (I sold the NY to a friend of mine which is very happy too with the NY)

cheers from France
I love France, with all that great food, wine, women and Cuban cigars why play the sax? A Rico mouthpiece isn't good for anything. I suggested warming up with a very open mouthpiece, not for playing the exercise, it will take too much breath. I'd suggest a Link, a 9 or 10. Phil
 
#28 ·
I'll be happy to have you as my guest whenever you get the time to come visit us in France. You have to go in the South of France to taste the wines they have there!

And thanks for the exercise!!!!!

It gets more difficult in the bottom notes and as you said, I wonder if it's possible to do the exercise on the whole range.
I found out that doing the exercise on notes in the upper octave could be really helpful as well in order to manage second octave D / Eb stuffiness on some horns, G / G# and the palm keys notes. I worked 5 minutes in the altissimo range as well and it helps getting a feeling how your body should work in order to get those notes with less pressure from the lips....

Phil Barone said:
with all that great food, wine, women and Cuban cigars why play the sax?
Because hopefully it will get you all those things from free!!:D (or is it the opposite & you'll never have them if you play too much sax??)

Victor.
 
#29 ·
magical pig said:
I'll be happy to have you as my guest whenever you get the time to come visit us in France. You have to go in the South of France to taste the wines they have there!

And thanks for the exercise!!!!!

It gets more difficult in the bottom notes and as you said, I wonder if it's possible to do the exercise on the whole range.
I found out that doing the exercise on notes in the upper octave could be really helpful as well in order to manage second octave D / Eb stuffiness on some horns, G / G# and the palm keys notes. I worked 5 minutes in the altissimo range as well and it helps getting a feeling how your body should work in order to get those notes with less pressure from the lips....

Because hopefully it will get you all those things from free!!:D (or is it the opposite & you'll never have them if you play too much sax??)

Victor.
Hi Victor,

Within itself, the sax is not stuffy with a good mouthpiece, it may be dark but not stuffy. But, when we put a mouth on it it limits the reeds vibration. This is all theoretical but it's the only way I know how to describe it.

My former wife and her family own vineyards in Remme ( I hope I spelled that right) and we still talk frequently. The sell 1/3 of their crop to Don Perignone and the rest they use to make Champagne which they sell from their home very cheap and as good as anything.

I've visited a few times and I hope to live there in the future. Generally speaking a lot of Americans don't like the French because of WW II but that's history as far as I'm concerned. I guess we forget that there would be no US without the French. I don't want to stir up anything but lately I'm not very proud of our government. I'm 47 years old and life is fleeting, the only thing we have as humans is solidarity but we forget.

Best wishes to all. Phil
 
#30 · (Edited)
Phil Barone said:
My former wife and her family own vineyards in Remme ( I hope I spelled that right) and we still talk frequently. The sell 1/3 of their crop to Don Perignone and the rest they use to make Champagne which they sell from their home very cheap and as good as anything.
I guess if they make Champagne it must be located in the Champagne area and could be REIMS?? If it is it'd be quite a funny coincidence because that's where I was born and started my life as a musician (paid to get drunk on Champagne & play jazz for rich old vineyards landlords!!!):cool:

Phil Barone said:
Generally speaking a lot of Americans don't like the French because of WW II
Don't you think the non-involvement position we had on the Irak issue also contributed to that feeling?

Anyway, I don't wanna hijack this thread.

Thanks again,
Victor.
 
#32 ·
magical pig said:
I guess if they make Champagne it must be located in the Champagne area and could be REIMS?? If it is it'd be quite a funny coincidence because that's where I was born and started my life as a musician (paid to get drunk on Champagne & play jazz for rich old vineyards landlords!!!):cool:

Don't you think the non-involvement position we had on the Irak issue also contributed to that feeling?

Anyway, I don't wanna hijack this thread.

Thanks again,
Victor.
That right, Reims. Her family is the Chauvet. The American's have resentments that go back longer. After all, most of Europe chose not to go to Iraq and the ones that did got a payment of some sorts. Phil
 
#33 ·
Could we please not dilute this thread like the other one? Thanks. :)
 
#34 ·
After going down the scale, would there be any harm in going back up the scale? C# to D, and so on?
 
#37 ·
I tried the exercise today, and it seemed to work ok. I had some of the forementioned struggle with the low notes, but I was able to get them somewhat under control eventually.

I am going to make this a part of my daily practice routine, and I am hoping for some results!

Thanks
 
#38 ·
Phil and dagsax, thanks a million for this.

I'm having trouble with the "huh - huh" notes. Really struggling to get them to start cleanly compared to when tonging the staccato notes. They kind of honk themselves into speaking.

Does that come with more perseverance? I'll keep at it!

Cheers and thanks again,
 
#39 ·
wwwgpb said:
Phil and dagsax, thanks a million for this.

I'm having trouble with the "huh - huh" notes. Really struggling to get them to start cleanly compared to when tonging the staccato notes. They kind of honk themselves into speaking.

Does that come with more perseverance? I'll keep at it!

Cheers and thanks again,
Push from the diaphragm and really support the air column
the horn will notice any weakness ;)
it will come with practice. when praticing long tones I always start the note this way.
 
#42 ·
dirty said:
I, too, am having some trouble with the "huh-huh" notes just coming out as honks. Should there be space in between them, or should they be right up against each other?
It seems that it is one of the key points ;)
 
#43 ·
since TONE PRO I i have been swallowing more mpc.
when i do the staccato notes i touch the reed in the middle with the middle of my tongue...not tip of tongue to tip of reed. can i assume this is The Way!
 
#45 ·
On tenor I am still honking low C# down, but it is getting better. I have noticed improvements; with about 20 years more practice I think I will sound something like John Coltrane, which I am quite happy about.

Thanks a lot Phil.
 
#46 ·
Martinman said:
On tenor I am still honking low C# down, but it is getting better. I have noticed improvements; with about 20 years more practice I think I will sound something like John Coltrane, which I am quite happy about.

Thanks a lot Phil.
Listen, maybe I wasn't clear. It's almost impossible to do these melodically the further you go down. The idea is to just do these exercises as best you can. Forget about doing them perfectly. Phil
 
#49 ·
Phil Barone said:
2. The only pressure on the reed should be with the bottom teeth through the lip USING THE JAW MUSCLES, NOT THE MUSCLES IN YOUR FACE. It should just be enough to FEEL the reed through the lower lip. Any more than that and you begin to close the tip opening of the mouthpiece off. If you have to do this, then it's time to get a new mouthpiece but not from me.
Mr. Barone,

Write me up in the SOTW record book as being the first person to say this, but I really don't want to change my setup. I have a HR Link 6* that sounds really, really nice, but it hurts to play it for long periods of time. I play lead alto in a rehearsal band, but by the end of our 2 hour rehearsal, my jaw is DEAD. Do you really think think that the only solution is a new mouthpiece? If so, what chnges do you suggest.

Your advice is much appreciated.

THANKS!

~Zach
 
#50 ·
saxymanzach said:
Mr. Barone,

Write me up in the SOTW record book as being the first person to say this, but I really don't want to change my setup. I have a HR Link 6* that sounds really, really nice, but it hurts to play it for long periods of time. I play lead alto in a rehearsal band, but by the end of our 2 hour rehearsal, my jaw is DEAD. Do you really think think that the only solution is a new mouthpiece? If so, what chnges do you suggest.

Your advice is much appreciated.

THANKS!

~Zach
I don't see why you'd need to switch mouthpieces but you should't be in any pain just from playing unless of course you use pressure incorrectly. That should be a pretty easy mouthpiece to play. So what's the question? Phil
 
#51 ·
Phil Barone said:
I don't see why you'd need to switch mouthpieces but you should't be in any pain just from playing unless of course you use pressure incorrectly. That should be a pretty easy mouthpiece to play. So what's the question? Phil
I'm sorry, I guess I should make it clearer. The question is: do you think that, as your initial post indicates, the cause of my biting (which seemingly can not be cured) is caused by a bad player/equipment combonation?

thanks

~Zach
 
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