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Tone Production

305K views 662 replies 159 participants last post by  CaillouSax 
#1 ·
I'm tired of mouthpiece makers lying to players telling them that they can get a potential customer to sound like someone, that's a bunch of BS. I'm laying out what I learned from Joe Allard, Herk Faranda, and Vick Morosco here and I’ll elaborate if some of you guys practice them and report back to me. My feeling is that the books and exercises available for sale are unnecessarily complicated. So, here's some stuff just to get started.

Play middle F without the octave key and using your throat, "slide" it down to low F. There’s no rhythm so hold the note for as long as you have to until it sounds low F but do it with the air stream and while opening your throat and supporting your diaphragm. It should be CLEAN and don't use your embouchure. If there's a gurgle or some distortion in between then keep trying until it's CLEAN. Use your diaphragm and open your throat more as you go to the low F and keep the diaphragm SUPPORTED. Do this exercise chromatically down to low Bb. It gets harder as you go down but the benefits will come by just practicing it. You should probably do it on F and E before you venture further down the register but trying to do it on D or Eb won't hurt because it's harder and may give you insight as to how to do it but if you're not successful then stop and take a break because you don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Also, practice scales on your mouthpiece when you can't have your horn with you. Remember, use your throat. The embouchure should be as loose and relaxed as possible.

Joe Allard used to tell me that the only pressure should be from the bottom of the mouthpiece using your teeth. Just enough to FEEL the reed through the bottom lip with your teeth using the muscles in your JAW, not your facial muscles and this "posture' should remain FIXED. The jaw muscles are much stronger than the facial muscles thus easier to control. This doesn't necessarily mean that you won't use your facial muscles at all but it’s just meant to lead you in the right direction.

Also, from now on, don't think of the extreme upper register as being hard to get, think of it as being easy, it’s in fact so easy that one thinks that you have to “try” in order to get them to play. The change in your embouchure stature should be SUBTLE, understand? I can get a variety of notes out using just one fingering but I don't change my embouchure, I alter my throat cavity and I hear the note a moment before I play it. Also, this is VERY important, take as much mouthpiece as possible. This may feel uncomfortable at first and the sound will be unrefined but in a few days it will feel natural and you will find the place where the mouthpiece will give you the optimum results.

I've watched many great players and the great majority of them take huge amounts of mouthpiece. Do this stuff for a few weeks then get back to me and I'll give you an exercise that along with these will enable you to play any mouthpiece and essentially sound the same. YOU will be the maker of the sound and not the mouthpiece or horn. By the way, do this as much as possible but if you don't have a lot of time just do them for a few minutes when you start your practice session and a few minutes at the end. If you're having a long practice session the try and do it in the middle too.

Phil
 
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#27 ·
MM said:
Great discussion! Probably belongs in the tone production area.

Phil, what do you mean keep it CLEAN? Do you mean the low note should be clean, or do you mean a play gradual chromatic gliss that is totally smooth, not just jumping down the octave? (For a real workout try this on 12ths on the clarinet!)

Vic has taught to keep the throat and oral cavity relaxed and open and with the tongue down flat out of the way of the air, and for example never say "eee" because that results in closing off the airstream with the tongue and causes unnecessary throat tension. Did Joe teach otherwise? I'm not convinced that manipulating the throat to be anything other than relaxed and open has any benefit.

Ditto with bobbing the jaw in and out as you play up and down (Phil has NOT recommended this.) Some players do this quite effectively but I think it is making more work for themselves.

Play the reed not the mouthpiece and play from the bottom up mean the upper teeth and upper lip should be passive only and not exert any unneeded pressure. This frees the bottom lip and jaw to be able to make the subtle adjustments for intonation, expression and range.

Playing double lip is a great exercise to break a bad habit of too much pressure from the top down. You don't need to get to "performance level" to reap some benefits from it.
What I mean by clean is that there shouldn't be any gurgling, squeaking or any weird noises between the octave notes. remember, I'm trying to keep this simple so just relax. Another thing you can do is practice with your top teeth off the mouthpiece. Phil
 
#28 ·
MM said:
I think there is some point where you take too much mouthpiece and can only honk. But you should challenge yourself since it may be more than you think.

My wife teaches beginning band and often deals with sax and clarinet players who try to swallow the entire mouthpiece and lig.

There are some fundamental concepts where this all came from. All that really matters is how much lip is on the reed, how firm it is, where it is placed and of course the airstream. There is no exact combination of these factors that work for every pitch, every dynamic, every tonal nuance so we need to learn flexibility to play what we hear. Everything else is extraneous tension, often due to habits ingrained over years. Pressure from the sides or the top is no help at all.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, don't hijack this thread. We're not dealing with children with super closed mouthpieces and soft reeds. But I'll tell you from experience, there would be a lot more god saxophone players if they learned at an early age to take a lot of mouthpiece. Let's keep this simple please and let people ask questions but let's not muck it up with a hundred different opinions and silly examples. There's s method to my madness. Phil
 
#596 ·
MM said:
I think there is some point where you take too much mouthpiece and can only honk. But you should challenge yourself since it may be more than you think.

My wife teaches beginning band and often deals with sax and clarinet players who try to swallow the entire mouthpiece and lig.

There are some fundamental concepts where this all came from. All that really matters is how much lip is on the reed, how firm it is, where it is placed and of course the airstream. There is no exact combination of these factors that work for every pitch, every dynamic, every tonal nuance so we need to learn flexibility to play what we hear. Everything else is extraneous tension, often due to habits ingrained over years. Pressure from the sides or the top is no help at all.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, don't hijack this thread. We're not dealing with children with super closed mouthpieces and soft reeds. But I'll tell you from experience, there would be a lot more god saxophone players if they learned at an early age to take a lot of mouthpiece. Let's keep this simple please and let people ask questions but let's not muck it up with a hundred different opinions and silly examples. There's s method to my madness. Phil
Here's the quote. Phil has re-iterated this point from time to time as well. This is not for beginners, and the method takes TIME. No one is meant to sound good playing it when you first start it, nor is it supposed to feel natural if you've never done it before.

My fault for saying it was at the beginning of the thread, it was on the 2nd page.
 
#29 ·
Ditto with bobbing the jaw in and out as you play up and down (Phil has NOT recommended this.) Some players do this quite effectively but I think it is making more work for themselves.
DO NOT DO THIS!

This is what screwed up my jaw and injured me to the point where I couldn't play for nearly five years.
 
#30 ·
Hi Phil,

I hope this isn't too lame (or crap), but would you (anybody) be willing to have a look at the picture I posted in the "embouchure gallery" thread (#53)

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=52352

I've been trying to take in more of my STM and I'm wondering if this looks good to you (sorry about the ugly)

Rory
 
#32 ·
Phil Barone said:
First, get a new teacher. He's bound to cause a great deal of future bad habits. it does sound honky at first but in a few days it will become refined. Don't worry about the squeaking, it will all come together in a short time. Wait till you see what I have in store for you. Phil
My instructor gave me exercises for classical like the one in your first post, only you make the pitch go down by lifting your upper lip. What is the deal with this?

There are no other good classical teachers in the area except this really old guy (who is an Allard student ironically) but he is...unusual. I have been taking in a lot of mouthpiece (I had my teeth a little past the back of the bite plate), and my band director has been complaining about my sound ever since I started about 2-3 months ago. He says it is "spread," but after talking to him about it, he agrees with the "******." Apparently, it completely takes over the band. I have been told by a guy who graduated last year and played tenor in our all-state jazz band that I "cut through everything like the dude from the Saturday Night Live Band." I am thinking the almost-squeeking might be caused by biting. I am going to try this stuff when I get to play bari in pep band tomorrow.

On another note, the trumpet player jazz professor at Butler really liked my sound, he said it reminded him of Dexter Gordon's big sound.
 
#34 ·
Martinman said:
My instructor gave me exercises for classical like the one in your first post, only you make the pitch go down by lifting your upper lip. What is the deal with this?

There are no other good classical teachers in the area except this really old guy (who is an Allard student ironically) but he is...unusual. I have been taking in a lot of mouthpiece (I had my teeth a little past the back of the bite plate), and my band director has been complaining about my sound ever since I started about 2-3 months ago. He says it is "spread," but after talking to him about it, he agrees with the "******." Apparently, it completely takes over the band. I have been told by a guy who graduated last year and played tenor in our all-state jazz band that I "cut through everything like the dude from the Saturday Night Live Band." I am thinking the almost-squeeking might be caused by biting. I am going to try this stuff when I get to play bari in pep band tomorrow.

On another note, the trumpet player jazz professor at Butler really liked my sound, he said it reminded him of Dexter Gordon's big sound.
Listen, just do the exercises for now and don't worry; there's more to be revealed. The Dukoff D7 may be prone to chirping no matter what embouchure you use. Phil
 
#35 ·
Martinman said:
My instructor gave me exercises for classical like the one in your first post, only you make the pitch go down by lifting your upper lip. What is the deal with this?

There are no other good classical teachers in the area except this really old guy (who is an Allard student ironically) but he is...unusual. I have been taking in a lot of mouthpiece (I had my teeth a little past the back of the bite plate), and my band director has been complaining about my sound ever since I started about 2-3 months ago. He says it is "spread," but after talking to him about it, he agrees with the "******." Apparently, it completely takes over the band. I have been told by a guy who graduated last year and played tenor in our all-state jazz band that I "cut through everything like the dude from the Saturday Night Live Band." I am thinking the almost-squeeking might be caused by biting. I am going to try this stuff when I get to play bari in pep band tomorrow.

On another note, the trumpet player jazz professor at Butler really liked my sound, he said it reminded him of Dexter Gordon's big sound.
What the hell are you doing studying classical sax anyway? There's no such thing and what are you going to do with it? There's no market for that. If you know all the fingering on the sax it's time to start studying with a jazz musician, it doesn't matter what instrument they play but someone with a strong piano would be best. Phil
 
#36 ·
Are you talking about a concert band here, martinman? Dukoff is probably not the best thing for that. Get a Selmer or a Vandoren classical mouthpiece and some hard reeds, clear that right up.

Phil, classical study helps you to learn your instrument and to be sensitive on it, and acts as a vehicle for improving your playing in any style. My classical study is what helped me to develop my sound and get gigs that actually pay.
 
#37 ·
Phil Barone said:
What the hell are you doing studying classical sax anyway? There's no such thing and what are you going to do with it? There's no market for that. If you know all the fingering on the sax it's time to start studying with a jazz musician, it doesn't matter what instrument they play but someone with a strong piano would be best. Phil
listen to what he said. Classical sax is good for college studies. But how many saxes do you see in an orchestra ... and .. how many orchestras do you see nowadays anyways.
 
#38 ·
Yeah, yeah but there aren't tons of big bands and jazz combos today either. If you want to get rich become a dentist. Shall we talk tone production?

Phil, all hijacking aside, I have serious questions on use of the throat: What exactly should you do to slide down the octave? Do you need to be careful not add throat tension when doing this exercise? I'm really puzzled because everything else seems to jive with Vic's teachings except for this throat stuff.
 
#39 ·
J.Max said:
Nothing against Joe Allard, who was a fantastic teacher and player, but he has turned out a couple of famous students with some...odd...implementations of his teachings. There are many good Allard students, but there a few who just didn't seem to catch on, but thought that they understood. I wonder if what Mr. Allard was trying to teach them was just above their heads.

I can tell the difference because I've studied with both a good one and a bad one, and the ideas were just fundamentally different.
this is a very complicatd thing to try to discuss in such a simplistic manner.
Joes teachings are like zen budism or something. there are no method books and each student SHOULD have an entirely different understanding of it as each student NEEDS to understand different things. Also for everyone exposed to it the ideas evolve slowly over the course of a lifetime. If you think Joes teachngs are this or that then perhaps it is YOU who have misunderstood !
 
#40 ·
MM said:
Yeah, yeah but there aren't tons of big bands and jazz combos today either. If you want to get rich become a dentist. Shall we talk tone production?

Phil, all hijacking aside, I have serious questions on use of the throat: What exactly should you do to slide down the octave? Do you need to be careful not add throat tension when doing this exercise? I'm really puzzled because everything else seems to jive with Vic's teachings except for this throat stuff.
Its exactly the same way you use your body when you sing nothing more.
this is why it is SO important and can't be stressed enough that you IMAGINE the sound fully before you try to make it. So your body can do the right thing to create the sound.
 
#41 ·
another thing we are missing here is the shape of the mouth cavity.
just like the shape of the mouthpiece chamber is the largest influence on tone and air stream velocity so is the shape and size of the mouth chamber.
Allard method is to learn to relax the tonge and have it form a relaxed seal across all the upper teeth accept for a small opening in the front directing the air stream into the mouthpiece tip opening. This tecnique might be greatly hindered by taking too much mouthpiece in your mouth.
as for sliding forward or backwards or moving the jaw up and down the jaw and lips should be fixed and unmoving and the lack of preasure on the reed should be constant and fixed. the lower lip is nothing more than a pivot point for the reed. all tone and pitch adjustments are made in the body and mouth not at the reed.
 
#42 ·
Phil Barone said:
What the hell are you doing studying classical sax anyway? There's no such thing and what are you going to do with it? There's no market for that. ...........
STEADY PHIL!

Let's not introduce any bigoted opinions into an excellent thread. Remember, one man's mouthpiece is another man's doorstop (or shortly to become so) ;).
 
#43 ·
DaveR said:
STEADY PHIL!

Let's not introduce any bigoted opinions into an excellent thread. Remember, one man's mouthpiece is another man's doorstop (or shortly to become so) ;).
AH, anyone that play classical sax is disillusioning themselves and I'm going to undissillusion them. In a week I want to hear from you guys about your exercises or else. Phil
 
#44 ·
garyjones said:
another thing we are missing here is the shape of the mouth cavity.
just like the shape of the mouthpiece chamber is the largest influence on tone and air stream velocity so is the shape and size of the mouth chamber.
Allard method is to learn to relax the tonge and have it form a relaxed seal across all the upper teeth accept for a small opening in the front directing the air stream into the mouthpiece tip opening. This tecnique might be greatly hindered by taking too much mouthpiece in your mouth.
as for sliding forward or backwards or moving the jaw up and down the jaw and lips should be fixed and unmoving and the lack of preasure on the reed should be constant and fixed. the lower lip is nothing more than a pivot point for the reed. all tone and pitch adjustments are made in the body and mouth not at the reed.
It's not missing. That stuff about the players build having to do with making the sound is bull. I'll give tell you why. I've seen every combination of people with very different structures sounding the same. One that always stuck out to me was Jerry Niewood and Sonny Rollins. Jerry can sound just like Sonny and he's build very differently than Sonny. the sound really starts at the reed and mouthpiece.

I think it's very important to stay focused here and just stay with the exercises because in a few weeks I'm going to give you an exercise that will change and improve your sound tremendously. Just focus on the exercises for now please and forget about everything else you think you know because you're going to feel very differently in a few weeks. Oddly enough I'm more excited about this post than any other because I think it will be very helpful. Once some of you have done these then you may be ready for a mouthpiece.
 
#45 ·
Phil Barone said:
AH, anyone that play classical sax is disillusioning themselves and I'm going to undissillusion them. In a week I want to hear from you guys about your exercises or else. Phil
Disillusioning?? I think that's not quite what you meant! :lol: Anyway, classical sax has served me well for the last 31 years of my continuing career, longer, perhaps than you've been making mouthpieces?;) I can do your exercise on a C* S80 as easily as on anything else........

Come on then what's next? You've whetted our appetites now, don't be a tease!
 
#46 ·
DaveR said:
Disillusioning?? I think that's not quite what you meant! :lol: Anyway, classical sax has served me well for the last 31 years of my continuing career, longer, perhaps than you've been making mouthpieces?;) I can do your exercise on a C* S80 as easily as on anything else........

Come on then what's next? You've whetted our appetites now, don't be a tease!
Okay, maybe disillusioning may be a little strong. How about living in a fantasy? Is that better? I'm not posting anything else until I hear that some of you have been doing the exercises for a few weeks. You may be able to do it but I want you to see results. The next exercise will change your sound. Can you practice scales on your mouthpiece yet? Phil
 
#47 ·
MM said:
My wife teaches beginning band and often deals with sax and clarinet players who try to swallow the entire mouthpiece and lig.
I want your wife's students!

I've worked with lots of youngsters after they've been playing for about a year or so -- just enough time for their bad habits to be bad and habitual -- and I've never ever ever had a beginning student take in enough mouthpiece! In fact, come to think of it, I'd pay Cash Money for your wife's students!

Mine always treat the mouthpiece as an Evil Foreign Invader -- this could have something to do with how often they clean it, but don't get me started on that -- well, I mean, since I have started, let me just say that the things I've seen growing inside some of my students' mouthpieces torture my sleep -- but anyways they take in only a teeny "safe" portion of the evil mouthpiece, and protect themselves further from the vile miscreant by curling way lots of protective lower lip over their teeth.

There is not a font size small enough to convey the power of the resulting "sound."
 
#48 ·
Kelly Bucheger said:
I want your wife's students!

I've worked with lots of youngsters after they've been playing for about a year or so -- just enough time for their bad habits to be bad and habitual -- and I've never ever ever had a beginning student take in enough mouthpiece! In fact, come to think of it, I'd pay Cash Money for your wife's students!

Mine always treat the mouthpiece as an Evil Foreign Invader -- this could have something to do with how often they clean it, but don't get me started on that -- well, I mean, since I have started, let me just say that the things I've seen growing inside some of my students' mouthpieces torture my sleep -- but anyways they take in only a teeny "safe" portion of the evil mouthpiece, and protect themselves further from the vile miscreant by curling way lots of protective lower lip over their teeth.

There is not a font size small enough to convey the power of the resulting "sound."
I taught in school to, 9 and 10 tear olds and I've had the same experience. But if a student doesn't takes a lot of mouthpiece that's really better than not taking enough because the sound will become refined in time. Phil
 
#49 ·
Phil,

As much as I HATED studying classical sax & don't like to listen to it, mostly. (except Alan Won--who is an old Allard student & has an UNBELIEVABLE classical sound & concept)

That being said...it is good for you. It helps with learning how to control the air in phrases, beginnings & ends of phrases, where & when to take a breath.

What gets people & students in trouble with it, is, if taught by someone with no other concept, (Like jazz or commercial), it can lead a student into not being able to "free-up" their air, not be able to know how to play anthing but conservative mpcs & reeds (like C*), then leading them to play a high baffle when trying for a jazz sound, and in general not being able to produce the necessary buzz for a jazz concept.

Of course, if you have a teacher like Alan Won or a Jim Riggs (UNT), who can incorporate Joe's thing w/classical, you'll be able to play any mpc & switch concepts easily.

If you REALLY hate the classical sax thing & just cant do it, do yourself a FAVOR & study classical on flute or clarinet--esp. flute--you'll learn alot about moving & controlling air--but thats for a whole 'nother thread:)
 
#50 ·
Great thread.

Learning classical saxophone is a great way to strengthen fundementals...because jazz is the same language. But Phil's right...there are french horns in orchestras and you do not need to be very good to play in a section of 6 saxophones in a community concert band. If your VERY VERY good you "might" have the opportunity to play as a soloist...but how often does that happen to saxophonists...outside of college... Learn clarinet!

The whole "play without a mouth..." concept is interesting. On the clarinet forum I remember reading an experiment where they hooked up a vacum cleaner to a mouthpiece and reversed the airflow. No embouchure...just solid air and a good seal. The clarinet played in tune and with a satisfactory tone. We mess it up by making unecessary adjustments and using unessesary pressure with our mouths. Allard's methods seem like a very good way to avoid all of that. As Phil quoted, "play the reed."

Everyone who posted on the instrument threads complaining about their new saxophone playing out of tune needs to shed this stuff.
 
#51 ·
Right on about the flute, Selmer's glu--most sax players really begin to approach their airstream differently if you delve into playing flute correctly. Or at least I did--on a side note, I think Ron Coehlo's pieces lend themselves to phils ideas well also--working best with softer reeds. If you can learn to control your air and relax you don't need all that tension of playing on such a stiff reed....
 
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