Index of classical mouthpieces - Page 4

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  1. #61
    Distinguished SOTW Member Razzy's Avatar
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    Ok JMax, now I'm downright confused, please clear this up for me

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Max
    The AL3 is 152 mm, the AL4 is 163, so in terms of tip openings, the AL4 is close to the C*, however, the AL3 has a longer facing and a bigger chamber than the C*, so it is more equivalent. Tip openings are only one part of facing equivalancies because different chamber sizes will affect the resistence of the mouthpiece.
    The AL3 has a longer facing and a bigger chamber than the C*, so it is more equivalent?? Wouldn't having a longer facing than the C* and a bigger chamber than the C*... make a mouthpiece less like the C* and not "more equivalent"? Or are you saying that these factors compensate for the (smaller/larger?) tip opening as compared to the C*? What ARE the (purported) designations of the C* as compared to the AL3 and the AL4? Which is larger or smaller than the C*? Thanks.
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  3. #62

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    Are any of you guys playing the Vandoren Optimum mouthpieces (AL3 & AL4) on Reference altos? I had mine over to my tech this last weekend and we were talking a little about mouthpieces, and he's had several customers that tried the AL3 and AL4 pieces on their Reference altos and they were just awful. Out of tune, didn't respond well, poor tone, and they went back to their main piece (NC4, C*, LT, etc.) and everything was outstanding. My tech was very confused, but said, "don't even waste the shipping to try one of the Optimum mpc's on your Reference" He's a big fan of the Vandoren jazz pieces, but hasn't had any positive experiences with the Optimums and the Reference. Thoughts???
    selmerfan

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razzy
    Ok JMax, now I'm downright confused, please clear this up for me



    The AL3 has a longer facing and a bigger chamber than the C*, so it is more equivalent?? Wouldn't having a longer facing than the C* and a bigger chamber than the C*... make a mouthpiece less like the C* and not "more equivalent"? Or are you saying that these factors compensate for the (smaller/larger?) tip opening as compared to the C*? What ARE the (purported) designations of the C* as compared to the AL3 and the AL4? Which is larger or smaller than the C*? Thanks.

    OK...here's the deal...I'll clear this up so there is less confusion.

    -The AL4 has a .70 tip opening, and the C* is ~ .70 as well. However, due to the slightly larger and round chamber and longer facing in the Optimum mouthpiece, there is a bit more resistance inherent in the design (due to the chamber size and baffle), so the AL3 (~.63) feels like it's a more equivalent piece. This is Vandoren's idea and not mine, as they market the AL3 as the "standard" competitor to the S80 C*. Try them both, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
    It's like playing a high baffle vs low baffle piece. You can use a larger tip opening with a higher baffle.

    Vandoren finally has a good tip opening comparison chart up, BTW.

    As far as the Optimums not working well with Reference Altos, I hadn't heard that, but it could be a case of the chamber and bore sizes not being a good match. Some people have a similar problem with S80 C* mouthpieces and Yamaha 62 horns...(which is one of the reasons that a lot of Yamaha players use Rousseau mouthpieces - they are designed around the bore of the Yamaha horns.)
    Last edited by J.Max; 06-01-2006 at 07:11 PM.
    Current setups:
    Yamaha YSS-875EX, Rousseau NC3 (refaced by Joe Giardullo), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YAS-875EXS, Rousseau RC4 (refaced by Brian Powell), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YTS-875EX, Rousseau NC4, Ishimori lig, Hemke 3.5
    Unison Black Nickel Bari, Rousseau NC4, BG Tradition lig, Hemke 3.5

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  6. #64
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    Let's bump this. Been a lot of mouthpiece questions lately...
    Current setups:
    Yamaha YSS-875EX, Rousseau NC3 (refaced by Joe Giardullo), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YAS-875EXS, Rousseau RC4 (refaced by Brian Powell), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YTS-875EX, Rousseau NC4, Ishimori lig, Hemke 3.5
    Unison Black Nickel Bari, Rousseau NC4, BG Tradition lig, Hemke 3.5

  7. #65

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    The AL3 also has a thicker tip rail than the AL4 this gives it a darker sound. Thats what Bernard told me from Vandoren.
    The Optimum 3 range as well as T20 and a few others have the thicker tip rail to darken the sound.

  8. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by illezt
    If you like the French school of playing, you really need to check out the Vandoren Optimum and Rousseau NC series. They're both excellent for French playing.

    Could you clarify what 'french' players use this mouthpiece??
    I know Formeau has just started using the AL3 occasionally, but who else?

    Habanera 4tet are selmer,
    Julian Petit selmer
    Vincent David was A28 now Selmer
    Claude Delangle changes all the time but states the AL3 is difficult to change tone.

    I dont know of any french saxophone players using the Rousseau.
    Dont get me wrong i love the OPtimum and although i dont like it Rousseau sounds great on his rousseau. Is Kenneth Tse on a Rousseau? but then he is american not french.

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    Yeah, I believe Tse uses a Rousseau NC4 with a Bay lig.

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    Kenneth does play a NC4. Delangle was using an A17 when I saw him this year, and actually tried a NC4 and really liked it.

    I personally get a very good French/Delangle sound with my NC4, or just about any other mouthpiece I play. The sound you produce has more to do with the oral cavity than the mouthpiece, I find. The mouthpiece will accentuate these qualities, if anything.

    Steve P

  11. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonathanbyrnes
    Could you clarify what 'french' players use this mouthpiece??
    I know Formeau has just started using the AL3 occasionally, but who else?

    Habanera 4tet are selmer,
    Julian Petit selmer
    Vincent David was A28 now Selmer
    Claude Delangle changes all the time but states the AL3 is difficult to change tone.

    I dont know of any french saxophone players using the Rousseau.
    Dont get me wrong i love the OPtimum and although i dont like it Rousseau sounds great on his rousseau. Is Kenneth Tse on a Rousseau? but then he is american not french.
    There is a difference between being French and being of the French school. Kenneth is a French school player, as he studied with Rousseau, and uses Rousseau mouthpieces. (Rousseau studied with Marcel Mule, of course.)

    As far as others...Formeau used the NC4 at one time, although I don't know what he is using now.

    If your "lineage" can be traced back to Marcel Mule, you are probably of the French school. You don't have to be French to be a French school player!
    Current setups:
    Yamaha YSS-875EX, Rousseau NC3 (refaced by Joe Giardullo), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YAS-875EXS, Rousseau RC4 (refaced by Brian Powell), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YTS-875EX, Rousseau NC4, Ishimori lig, Hemke 3.5
    Unison Black Nickel Bari, Rousseau NC4, BG Tradition lig, Hemke 3.5

  12. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonathanbyrnes
    Could you clarify what 'french' players use this mouthpiece??
    I know Formeau has just started using the AL3 occasionally, but who else?

    Habanera 4tet are selmer,
    Julian Petit selmer
    Vincent David was A28 now Selmer
    Claude Delangle changes all the time but states the AL3 is difficult to change tone.

    I dont know of any french saxophone players using the Rousseau.
    Dont get me wrong i love the OPtimum and although i dont like it Rousseau sounds great on his rousseau. Is Kenneth Tse on a Rousseau? but then he is american not french.
    otis murphy
    Last edited by Demolisher; 07-12-2009 at 05:31 PM.

  13. #71
    Distinguished SOTW Member JfW's Avatar
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    I figured I ought to 'bump' this thread with this question:

    JMax, could you (or anyone else) perhaps explain more the subtle differences you found between the Caravan Medium and the Morgan 3C? I'm going back and forth between an S80 and AL3 right now and actually looking for something along those lines, but a little difference. I'm looking more for the sound of the S80, with more depth, but with the response of the AL3. If that makes sense.

  14. #72
    Distinguished SOTW Member/ Forum Contributor 2011 awholley's Avatar
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    You probably want the 3c. The possible downside is that the sound will not be as pure (but more earthy), but it will respond better than either of those other two. The Caravan will be a fair bit more resistant and less flexible than what you are working with now, but the tone will be dark and pure with plenty of focus.

  15. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by JfW
    I figured I ought to 'bump' this thread with this question:

    JMax, could you (or anyone else) perhaps explain more the subtle differences you found between the Caravan Medium and the Morgan 3C? I'm going back and forth between an S80 and AL3 right now and actually looking for something along those lines, but a little difference. I'm looking more for the sound of the S80, with more depth, but with the response of the AL3. If that makes sense.
    Three big differences:

    1. The Morgan is much more free blowing. Caravan mouthpieces are super-resistant, and meant to be that way. Response (for me) is awesome on the Morgan, but I had trouble with the Caravan. Keep in mind, I'm a French/American guy, so I don't like that much resistance in my mouthpieces.

    2. The Morgan is slightly brighter. But not terribly so. It's darker than the S-80 or AL3.

    3. (Please don't be upset with me for saying this) Morgans are likely to much better made. Ralph hand finishes EVERY SINGLE PIECE that goes out his door, and he uses a special rubber formulation. Caravans are made by Babbitt (as are Rousseaus, Raschers, and many,many others) and so the hand finishing on them is minimal.

    Simply put, the Morgan is the closest you will find to a true high-end mouthpiece in the classical world. (Like the Guardalas or Barones for jazz). Does that mean they are for everyone? No.
    Current setups:
    Yamaha YSS-875EX, Rousseau NC3 (refaced by Joe Giardullo), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YAS-875EXS, Rousseau RC4 (refaced by Brian Powell), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YTS-875EX, Rousseau NC4, Ishimori lig, Hemke 3.5
    Unison Black Nickel Bari, Rousseau NC4, BG Tradition lig, Hemke 3.5

  16. #74

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    How would you describe the selmer D-soloist (especially in comparison to the Rascher)?

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    Very, very different pieces between the Soloist and the Rascher. The Rascher is probably the darkest mouthpiece you can buy, with lots of resistence. The Soloist is a classical piece, but it's ALMOST bright enough to be a jazz piece (Joe Henderson used one on tenor, among other players.).

    It's pretty simple really...those two are on either end of the scale for classical pieces. There is no darker piece than a Rascher (except for maybe a vintage Buescher) and there are few brighter classical pieces than a Soloist.

    To be honest, I am guessing that if you are asking this question, you haven't committed to a particular style of classical playing, and may want to wait on buying anything until you do.
    Current setups:
    Yamaha YSS-875EX, Rousseau NC3 (refaced by Joe Giardullo), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YAS-875EXS, Rousseau RC4 (refaced by Brian Powell), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YTS-875EX, Rousseau NC4, Ishimori lig, Hemke 3.5
    Unison Black Nickel Bari, Rousseau NC4, BG Tradition lig, Hemke 3.5

  18. #76

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    Thanks. Well, at the moment I haven't played more than ten mouthpieces altogether. Still, I look for a dark, warm type of tone, and am finding the D Soloist (for alto) quite warm already. I was just wondering whether a Rascher or a Buescher would be much darker, warmer or rounder. Are all Buescher mouthpieces very dark?

  19. #77

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    I have a Morgan C1 for bari and just picked up an Optimum BL4.
    I would give the edge to the Vandoren for depth of sound, clarity and flexibilty. The BL4 plays easier than the Morgan, if that could ever be possible.
    Although It could be I like the slightly more open facing.
    Perhaps a BL3 would have been more like the Morgan.
    I will have to spend more time with the vandoren, but my first impression is the Vandoren is slightly more colored in its tone.

    Since the Morgan C1 is no longer available for Bari the Vandoren is its most likely replacement for those who fell in love with the Morgan mouthpiece of old. (For Bari)

  20. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by ougoah
    Thanks. Well, at the moment I haven't played more than ten mouthpieces altogether. Still, I look for a dark, warm type of tone, and am finding the D Soloist (for alto) quite warm already. I was just wondering whether a Rascher or a Buescher would be much darker, warmer or rounder. Are all Buescher mouthpieces very dark?
    About the Buescher mouthpieces: all of them are not as "dark" as some of the other mouthpieces you've all tried. I own three (and have played numerous others) and all are very different from one another: one is warm, but bright for my taste; one could be used for a jazz mouthpiece; and one has a dark sound, but requires an extremely hard reed to make it work. I have found more success with re-faced Raschers and Caravans in my own playing. If you are liking your Soloist more, then by all means use it!
    Brian Kauth

  21. #79

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    Could a Buescher mpc work with the Serie III alto? Some say that it would have terrible tuning.

  22. #80

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    I'm sure that it would work, as far as getting a sound on it. Regarding pitch, I don't know how it would respond. I've noticed that Caravans and Bilgers work well on modern instruments. During my undergraduate days I heard many students using Caravans on Selmer Serie II and III instruments, and get great results.
    Brian Kauth

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