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Professionel King S20 Players

21K views 62 replies 40 participants last post by  zootspiker 
#1 ·
I've been wondering for a longer time whether there are professionals outside playing a Super 20?
If you're looking at all the setup lists in the net you always read Mark VI, Mark VI,Mark VI and ... Mark VI, Ba, SBA, somtimes SA80.
I often have the impression that the king,conn, martin, buescher vintage market (at last here in europe) is more for the qualified amateur or the collectors. All the pros I know play Selmer!
So, if you now somebody I'd love listen to him or her!
Regards!
Chris
 
#6 ·
NorthGermanFishhead said:
I often have the impression that the king,conn, martin, buescher vintage market (at last here in europe) is more for the qualified amateur or the collectors.
Welcome to SotW, NGF. Your observation inspires some questions:

Selmer set up a U.S. distributor so there are a lot of Selmer horns in the U.S. Might anyone know what year they started their business in the U.S.? It seems they have been in the U.S. almost as long as Selmer has been making horns.

Did the American builders have a similar, reciprocal arrangement in Europe? Were Kings and Conns (and the rest) formally distributed in large numbers or did those horns have to emmigrate to Europe with musicians?
 
#7 · (Edited)
Let's not forget Bird on the list of Super 20 players (however, Bird always had his sound no matter what he played- the Massey Hall Concert, which he played using a plastic saxophone, is a perfect example of that). There were some other well known musicians that played other horns. Lester Young played a Conn and Sonny Rollins actually played a Super 20 earlier in his career. As far as guys out there today, Phil Wodds endorses Yamaha horns and I know quite a few professional musicians here in Chicago that play vintage non-Selmer horns, but they aren't very well known outside of the city (that's not to say that these guys don't have monster amounts of talent-many of them could challenge the bigger name players out there any day).
 
#8 ·
It's 8 am in Germany now.
Thanks for your answers.
I know the players who used the Super 20 in the past. But actually I'm interested in the young pros. They don't have to be well known (in the whole world). There are a few in Germany as well prefering Kings or Conns, but ,´most of the use Selmer.
@DR G: You are right. I Think there was nothing quite like in Europe. Since there was no Ebay.... I think the first US horns came with either with the first musicians touring through Europe or with a soldier during WWII.
Maybe some emigrants shiped a few horns to europe.
 
#9 ·
In Holland there is a terrific player, Maarten Ornstein, who plays a S20. Apart from being the best Eddie Harris emulator I've ever heard, he has a very own voice and style. He can be heard on several albums of the Challange label.
 
#12 ·
Jim Horn has played his Super 20 tenor on some greats, which I can't remember.

The guy from Edgar Winter's White Trash, who looks just like me, played one.

I play one!

Fact is that they are getting rarer by the day. I get more and more compliments on my Super 20 as the years go by. I never see anyone else with one.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Hi!
I'm playing one, too. But the question still is why don't more musicians play it? Or why do they change (like young coltrane or sonny)?
I think its a grat horn. But as I am a professional sax and clarinet teacher I sometimes have problems playing it during lessons. Fot that purpose my Mark VI was the better solution.
Here's a pic of mine!
Ciao!
 
#62 ·
I bought one from this site. Had it overhauled by Larry Mynet, Venice, FL. Best horn I ever owned and I've had, all tenors, Super 20, 28 years, Buffet S-1 30 years, MK VI 5 years. The overhaul did not include re-lacquer and this is the best,easiest blowing horn ever, for me. I don't play it, except to record, because I have bone-on-bone arthritis and the wider spread of the left hand palm keys REALLY aggravates it. I can whisper attack a low C, B, Bb without a hitch, and the intonation is spot on. The sound is full and rich.
 
#15 ·
What seems to have happened is that Selmer introduced the Mark VI with both excellent marketing and excellent distribution. It was also an excellent product with improved keywork. American manufacturers weren't able to compete in terms of production and price and Selmer triumphed. The VHS versus Beta analogy probably works here. Nowadays there are nowhere near as many Super 20s as Mark VIs and they're legend is only now starting to catch up. In time it may well be that S20s exceed Mk6s in terms of price and desirability because the world is a funny place when it comes to placing value on things.
 
#61 ·
I think the patented rib construction on the Selmers likely made the manufacturing process easier, and perhaps (guessing) required less technical skill compared to the American post construction. Therefore less cost to produce and more capital to market or however they wielded their lower mfg cost to advantage. (I own a 300xxx S20 400xxx silversonic 87xxx MVI and some others and the MVI just sits there) Ergo's are great, but the tone? meh.
 
#17 ·
I think you don't see a lot of younger guys today playing Super 20s because of the "hype" of Selmer Mark VIs. I'm not, by any means, saying that the Mark VI is not a great horn because you don't get a great reputation for nothing. But I do think that there is too much hype when it comes to the VI. A lot of younger guys hear so much about the VI that they really don't look into any other horns by other brands, which is a shame-especially in the vintage market where you have a LOT of great, high quality horns to choose from. A good horn, of course, is a personal thing, and just because a Mark VI was the horn of choice for somebody like Dexter Gordon doesn't mean that it will be the best horn for you. Maybe a Buescher Aritocrat, Conn 10M, Martin, or a Super 20 will end up being better for you. I would never give up my Super 20 for anything, but I wouldn't tell a young sax player "A super 20 is the best horn-you should get one" because that might not be the best horn for them. I think too many young cats today just look at Selmer and that's it and never really consider what else is out there.
 
#19 ·
Proffessional Super 20 Players

Georgie Auld played a Super 20 and sounded great on it. The Super is a great jazz horn. I play a 1965 Silversonic Tenor with a Runyon Quantum (delrin) mouthpiece opened up to a 14 by Mojo Bari, Eddie Daniels ll ligature and #3 Vandoren ZZ reeds.......big clear sound with edge. The 20 is in a class by itself.
Best Regards Mactenor
 
#20 ·
Mactenor said:
Georgie Auld played a Super 20 and sounded great on it. The Super is a great jazz horn. I play a 1965 Silversonic Tenor with a Runyon Quantum (delrin) mouthpiece opened up to a 14 by Mojo Bari, Eddie Daniels ll ligature and #3 Vandoren ZZ reeds.......big clear sound with edge. The 20 is in a class by itself.
Best Regards Mactenor
A 14!! Do you play with Spinal Tap?
 
#21 ·
Actually I purchased the mouthpiece from Mojo Bari as a 14 . He used it as his "Big Piece" to quote him. You can order up to 12 from Runyon. The 14 has a tip opening of .120 #3 ZZ reeds are softer, they tend to play like a 2 1/2. Not an overwhelming setup to handle.....gets a big sound.
Best Regards Mactenor
 
#22 · (Edited)
My theory is the King Super 20s arent as good as the other pro brands of the time. that is why they had endorsement deals and also did the cosmetic stuff with the silver necks and pearls.

I got hold of a relacqoured King Super 20 with side pearls and it didnt work for me, but it had Noyeks and i was on a DUkoff. It was shrill. It was nicer with my Selmer Solosit E but I traded the sax away instead.

A friend of mine now dead was an older pro player and he had a Kijng Super 20 alto with side pearls and also a 1930's Selmer and the Selmer was the better sounding horn, but both were good.

I think a lot of the King Super 20 mystique is hype and glitz beacuse of the silver shiny qualities of the neck and bell (if it has the silver bell.)

I know another plaeyr who got an alto Kign Super 20, goldplated it and repadded it, still didnt like it and then was trying to sell it (to me).

My theory is the top players in the 50's who were on the Super 20 altos got free horsn or more endorsement incentives to play it, and they probably liked the silver shininess too.

I have played a number of King Super 20 altos with good repad jobs too and i find i like Selmers, Conns, Bueschers and Martins better.

My friend the older pro player who had a King Super 20 alto said when he did pro sax section work ie with union players, all the otehr guys had Selmers and looked askance on a King or Martin horn, thinkign the tone would not fit in as well with the section work and also the tuning might not be as good as the Selmers.

The Kings became known (he told me) as individualist jazz player horns rather than people doing work on tv or film or big band projects.

He told me the intonation is sketchier on the Kings than the Selmers but the Kings are more free blowing (less resistant)

After having one and trying at least 5 others (all altos) they just dont do much for me, the main reason i wanted one was because Cannonball had one and the limited edition mystique of the silver neck and side pearls played a number on me. Cannonball's did NOT have silver bell. (I have seen an album cover showing his had a brass bell (maybe he had a silver bell one too.)

I just view the King super 20 altos as one of the numerous good pro horns including also selmer, conn, martin, and buescher. if i had to pick one from the prime years in similar condition (to play and not resell) it would not be the king. Of the 5 brands king might be my last choice. Thats just me.

My repairman appreciates the mechanical construction qualiteis of the Super 20. It might be advanced from a mechahnical standpoint with the linkages, design etc, compared to say a Martin.
 
#23 ·
I've played some killer Super 20's. A guy I play with during the summer has one with full pearls and it just sings. The King altos have a certain vibe and a sense of power in the tone that goes beyond any other horn I have played. With that said, I don't own one but would if I could find a great deal on one.
 
#24 ·
What i find is that the tone is kind of bright and thinner than say a Conn 6m, mark vi, Buescher Aristocrat,or Martin THE MARTIN or CommII.

I found the tone doesnt hold up to Dukoff metal mouthpiece. Even on a Selmer Soloist or Brilhart Ebolin, i enjoy the thicker tone of the other horns better.

The good King 20's do sing but the tone is kind of lighter weight and bright. I got off a agig just now where i was on a Brilhart Great Neck NY Ebolin and a THE MARTIN alto and i just prefer that sound. Its a warmer, thicker kind of sound.

I like Cannonball's sound but for example i think MERCY MERCY MERCY was probably recorded live after the sax was mic;'d and amplified through the PA.
This is my theory anyway, obviusly it is a live recording on a gig there is no doubt about that.

Coming from Martins, i foudn the King tone to be thin and lighter

When i did outdoor gigs with insufficietn amplification and monitors, also, i felt i could hear myself play much better ona Martin or a Mark VI than on the King Super 20. I think the kings are overrated personally.
 
#63 ·
Martins are definitely thicker. It's a unique tone concept. I own a Comm III; Conn M30; MVI 86xxx; a 300xxx s-20 and 400xxx silversonic. I enjoy the lush sound of the martin with a Phil Barone Trad/Contemp HR 9; but my go to is my Silversonic with a Wanne Datta 9. My least favorite horn of the bunch is the MVI. Sort of the Bose Speaker of saxophones. all mid range. Good for section work because it dosent stand out.
 
#26 ·
garyinla said:
What i find is that the tone is kind of bright and thinner than say a Conn 6m, mark vi, Buescher Aristocrat,or Martin THE MARTIN or CommII.

I found the tone doesnt hold up to Dukoff metal mouthpiece. Even on a Selmer Soloist or Brilhart Ebolin, i enjoy the thicker tone of the other horns better.

The good King 20's do sing but the tone is kind of lighter weight and bright. I got off a agig just now where i was on a Brilhart Great Neck NY Ebolin and a THE MARTIN alto and i just prefer that sound. Its a warmer, thicker kind of sound.

I like Cannonball's sound but for example i think MERCY MERCY MERCY was probably recorded live after the sax was mic;'d and amplified through the PA.
This is my theory anyway, obviusly it is a live recording on a gig there is no doubt about that.

Coming from Martins, i foudn the King tone to be thin and lighter

When i did outdoor gigs with insufficietn amplification and monitors, also, i felt i could hear myself play much better ona Martin or a Mark VI than on the King Super 20. I think the kings are overrated personally.
I'm glad you pros are on here to explain it all for us. It's too bad Cannonball isn't still with us--it sounds like you could teach him a few things about playing the sax; like first of all, that he shouldn't have wasted his time playing a King Super 20--he should've chosen a Martin. Funny, but besides Art Pepper, I don't remember hearing about too many legendary A-List players who opted for the Martin--oh yes, aside from yourself, that is. ;)

One thing that's important to remember is that Cannonball would've pretty much sounded like himself whether he was on a King or a Martin (or a "fill in the blank.") In a way, it's kind of presumptious for us to assume that he was even playing a King on every single recording session--even those where he's shown holding one on the album cover. I've heard that Rollins posed for album photos with his Mark VI, but sometimes actually recorded with an old Bundy.
 
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