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"Schools" of playing

80K views 126 replies 55 participants last post by  sergiiser014 
#1 · (Edited)
This is really for the newer people here, but I thought I would take it upon myself to explain what is meant by the different schools of playing. I was trained primarily in the French tradition, so if you are a Rascher or Teal person, please feel free to add your comments. I'm not trying to cause debate or contention, but since people have been asking, I thought I'd expalin it a bit better. Let's not talk about why there are feuds or anything else, please.

French School- Can be traced back to Marcel Mule. Prominent players include Frederick Hemke, Eugene Rousseau, Daniel Deffayet, Jean-Marie Londeix and Claude Delangle. Equipment is exclusively modern. (And normally Selmer or Yamaha) Mouthpieces ususally have "shaped" chambers, such as the S-80, Rousseau NC, or Vandoren. Methods include linear etudes, some scale work, articulation work, and repertoire. Tone tends to be brighter and articulations tend to be lighter than the other two schools. There is quite a bit of crossover in training with the American school.

Rascher School-Can be traced back, obviously, to Sigurd Rascher. Prominent players include Carina Rascher, David Bilger, and Paul Cohen. Equipment is usually vintage, especially Buescher. (Many Rascher people feel that modern horns have gone away from Adolphe Sax's original design). Mouthpieces are exclusively round chambered and resistant, such as Caravan and Buescher. The most important feature that differentiates Rascher training is the use of overtone exercises. Tone tends to be darker, articulations heavier, and vibrato is slower than the other two schools. (although this varies.) There is very little crossover training with the other two schools.

American school-Can be traced back to Larry Teal, although there are very few "pure" American school players. Prominent players include Donald Sinta, Michael Hester (who has had a lot of French training also), and Steven Mauk. Equipment is usually modern (Mark VI or newer). Mouthpieces vary, although many American school players use Selmer LTs for obvious reasons. Tone is somewhere between the German and French schools, and the vibrato is usually terminal in imitation of flute or voice. Most American school players will have French training as well.

There is one other school of playing, which I hesitate to mention, but in my studies of this subject I think it's worth explaining. I will NOT give anyone specific names on this:

"Lunatic Fringe"-This is my name for teachers who have created cults of personality around themselves and do not acknowledge any other influence. Equipment is usually EXACTLY what said teacher uses and all tone, etc. is in imitation of that teacher. I will leave you to your own conclusions on this one.
 
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#52 ·
I don't think they differ at all. The concepts are the same, however, Rousseau's book has a more pedagogical approach and it gears the player torwards technical mastery of the altissimo register. I have used both in my studies. I also should mention that for Rousseau, overtones are only a means of acquiring the altissimo register and once that has been achieved and you retain the feeling and concept, he doesn't emphasize continual practice of the overtone exercises.
 
#53 ·
GAS_Wyo said:
JMax,
I'm also wondering...how would my favorite players fit into the different schools?

Sanborn?
Clarence Clemens?
Jay Beckenstein?
Michael Brecker?
(in other words, Modern and Smooth Jazzers)
Sanborn had lessons with Hemke, Brecker had lessons with Allard, not sure about the other two.

I was doing a gig with one of my old teachers last night and we were discussing the idea of people placing themself in a 'school'. His opinion, and I kind of agree, is that people who get too hung up on this are often players who never on their own two feet and come up with their own take on things.

As for the 'Allard school'- I've had lessons with quite a few Allard students who profess to be teaching THE Joe Allard embouchure and they all say different things. No two of Joe's students were taught the same.

I'd like to start my own school- the 'Put the thing in your gob and just play it' school.
 
#54 ·
Rick said:
What does tradition and heratige have to do with how he plays now? nothing,
I really don't agree with that, as well as your previous statement saying that Delangle is doing the opposite to Mule.
Yes, he is very different in ideals and sound production (times change) but Delangle holds onto his heritage and is very proud of the tradition he has been born out of. The Paris con system of teaching has been a major impact on the life of Delangle. Claude does not distance himself from Mule, if you read some of the interviews between the two you'll be aware there is a great deal of respect there!
 
#55 ·
Benny said:
I'd like to start my own school- the 'Put the thing in your gob and just play it' school.
I'm in that school.
 
#59 ·
Benny said:
Sanborn had lessons with Hemke, Brecker had lessons with Allard, not sure about the other two.

I was doing a gig with one of my old teachers last night and we were discussing the idea of people placing themself in a 'school'. His opinion, and I kind of agree, is that people who get too hung up on this are often players who never on their own two feet and come up with their own take on things.

As for the 'Allard school'- I've had lessons with quite a few Allard students who profess to be teaching THE Joe Allard embouchure and they all say different things. No two of Joe's students were taught the same.

I'd like to start my own school- the 'Put the thing in your gob and just play it' school.
That's the thing about Allard - most of his more famous students are jazz players, and none of them teach the same way. Pittel, for example, teaches very differently from Dave Liebman...

As far as your other comments go, this is a way to trace heritage, not to make excuses for how you play, or to get too "hung up on". It's just interesting to trace who studied with whom and to see the similarities and differences in people's playing. Brecker studied for a year with Rousseau too, BTW. I heard a lot of crazy stories about him...
 
#60 ·
A.Smith said:
I really don't agree with that, as well as your previous statement saying that Delangle is doing the opposite to Mule.
Yes, he is very different in ideals and sound production (times change) but Delangle holds onto his heritage and is very proud of the tradition he has been born out of. The Paris con system of teaching has been a major impact on the life of Delangle. Claude does not distance himself from Mule, if you read some of the interviews between the two you'll be aware there is a great deal of respect there!
I understand the respect, but again, respect can mean a variety of things. I have respect for many other people but it doesn't mean I have to adopt their ways. Similarly, I think Delangle can have the greatest respect for the maître but he has developed such a different style of playing the two can not possibly be akin. If you can list how Delangle is similar to Mule in tradition, I would love to hear it. Maybe I don't understand you stance on heritage/tradition. Is this a pedagogical approach to the school you are speaking of? If it is, well, a pedagogical approach isn't really a "school". It's a method of teaching and you can teach that same method and get a variety of results from the players themselves.
 
#61 ·
To quote from A la francaise:

A pioneer on his instrument, Mule seems to have identified the characteristics of a French 'classical' aesthetic. Taking his cue from 'le beau chant', his studies of vibrato and of beauty of sound were at the heart of his work. This approach, aiming to trace the timbres back to the original sources, is not that dissimilar to that of composers of spectral music, shedding an astonishingly topical light on the work of this creator of the modern saxophone.......
What is happening to this heritage at the moment when the doors of time are closing upon the twentieth century? Aligning himself with the tradition of Marcel Mule, Claude Delangle has considered this very point, concluding: 'This music forms part of my culture and, as such, it posses an educative value which I, in turn, am obliged to pass on. His aesthetic remains full of meaning, even if now we regard it from some distance.'
 
#62 ·
A.Smith said:
To quote from A la francaise:

A pioneer on his instrument, Mule seems to have identified the characteristics of a French 'classical' aesthetic. Taking his cue from 'le beau chant', his studies of vibrato and of beauty of sound were at the heart of his work. This approach, aiming to trace the timbres back to the original sources, is not that dissimilar to that of composers of spectral music, shedding an astonishingly topical light on the work of this creator of the modern saxophone.......
What is happening to this heritage at the moment when the doors of time are closing upon the twentieth century? Aligning himself with the tradition of Marcel Mule, Claude Delangle has considered this very point, concluding: 'This music forms part of my culture and, as such, it posses an educative value which I, in turn, am obliged to pass on. His aesthetic remains full of meaning, even if now we regard it from some distance.'
Totally and absolutely agreed.

We can no more forsake our own heritage than claim a 100% original approach. Though I can't put my finger on it right this late minute (thanks for the challenge, Rick!), I can guarantee that if you visit me, we'll come to an agreement that Delangle's fresh interpretations are naturally descended from a combination of Mule-influenced Deffayet, Delangle's impeccable clarinetist brother Remy, his sublime wife Odile, and doubtless other contemporaries.

Angel
 
#64 ·
Indeed. I have some great, recent recordings of Claude and son together (though I'm not sure if Odile is at the piano).
When CD visited Minnesota while I was still there, I was practicing away one morning, and heard a bassoonist in the next room really tearing it up. Sounded like an upperclassman, if not a grad student, sound wise; just beautiful!! As I took a break and walked by the window, I saw Claudes 8 year old daughter with her Bassoon. Music runs strong in their blood, no doubt about it!

Steve P
 
#65 ·
Amazing. I heard a recording somewhere of Claude and Remy, and I assumed that the mature artist on the clarinet was his brother. Extremely impressive playing for a young person.

Angel
 
#68 ·
What's always been amazing to me is that his father was only 30 when he was appointed as the Professor of Saxophone at the Paris Conservatory...
 
#67 ·
Gut:

My mom always warned me to not have a battle of wits with an unarmed person, but I'll try anyway.

Your comments are abrasive and at times nonsensical.

I have been a lifelong "American/French School" taught saxophonist. Yet this past Novemeber at the Rascher 100 birthday celebration Concerto Concert, you could have knocked me over with a feather after Harry White's performance of the Larsson. It was the one of the most technically refined, musically nuanced, expressive in short stunning solo performances I have ever heard. I do not limit myself to listening to saxophonists either. I have many living greats solo with orchestras in my close to 30 years in music, and this performance cited was one of the best I have ever heard. Period.

I have no clue what your motives are here, or why you seem to have your bloomers all in a knot over Rascher, the Rascher School and contemporary literature, but you just have to chill. This is saxophone for gosh sake, something that ought to bring you some pleasure. Take a breath and get over yourself, man!;)

Steve
 
#72 ·
Gut:

Yet this past Novemeber at the Rascher 100 birthday celebration Concerto Concert, you could have knocked me over with a feather after Harry White's performance of the Larsson. It was the one of the most technically refined, musically nuanced, expressive in short stunning solo performances I have ever heard. I do not limit myself to listening to saxophonists either. I have many living greats solo with orchestras in my close to 30 years in music, and this performance cited was one of the best I have ever heard. Period.

Steve
I think everyone there was similarly stunned by his performance. Everyone walked out of the hall glassy-eyed. I still get that feeling when I think back to it!
 
#70 ·
Technically, he's a Rascher guy because that's where his main course of study comes from, and since we are talking historical roots, it puts him in that category.

But Houlik is one of those guys who sort of blurs the lines - because his main focus is tenor, his manner of teaching and playing is really in another class. He's not a "Lunatic Fringe" guy either - he hasn't formed a cult of personality around himself, which is the main qualification for that classification.
 
#74 ·
I'd similarly like to hear a recording of that performance if one exists. When I heard about the concert, that was one the performances that I was most upset about not being able to hear (I really love the concerto and Harry White's playing in general.) I'm glad to hear that it was apparently as incredible as I had imagined, though I wish even more that I could have been there...
 
#79 ·
Just like there is a Russian method to piano/violin or a Suzuki method or whatever, so it is with the saxophone. That's the best analogy I can draw for you. The fact is that there are differences in pedagogy, and players from different "schools" of thought will come out sounding differently. You can take different paths and (as has been noted) things are coming more and more together.

I don't understand why people have such a big problem with the concept that there are different schools of thought when it comes to the saxophone. It's pretty much accepted that there are different "schools" on every other major instrument that I can think of: clarinet (French vs. German) piano (Russian, French, several others), violin (you name it). There are even two methods on the theremin! (One is named for Clara Rockmore, and I can't remember what the other is called.) This is not a foreign concept, nor is it unique to the saxophone.
 
#78 ·
Well, it's a way of declaring your loyalties, if you have them. But music ideally ought to be above loyalties.
 
#82 ·
I have just become aware of these posts.
I don't consider my playing/teaching to be from any saxophone school. it is more from the "Orchestral School" of playing based upon the quality of wind playing one hears in professional orchestras.
Rascher did have a strong influence on me, mostly with aesthetics, philosophy, and the meaning of our repertoire. I did not take saxophone lessons from him, but did attend clinics, and I spent numerous days at his farm over the years with hours of discussion and discovery. But I do not use his equipment, in that most of my professional instruments are Selmers (I split my soprano playing with Buescher curved and a 90,000 series Selmer) with Caravan mouthpieces for most classical music, and Van Dorens for other types of playing. (And a Meyer for jazz).
The biggest influence on sound came from my college teacher, Galan Kral (also Pat Meighan's teacher) who is an oboist by trade. He schooled us in the nuance and subtlety of sound from his orchestra experiences. This was a seminal experience in understanding the meaning and effect of an artistic tone quality.
The biggest influence on playing came from my terrific years with Joe Allard. His understanding of the mechanics and physics of tone production and playing transformed my understanding and ability to play the saxophone, and provided me with most of my professional skills. Both Rascher and Allard stressed overtones, and I synthesized their collective understanding and teaching methods into my own system, which include specialized mouthpiece exercises, my "Altissimo Primer" book, etc.

I hope this clarifies some of the questions and discussions.

Paul Cohen
 
#83 ·
Hi Paul, hope you're well.
I know this is an old thread but it's important to note how much Hamelin and McClane influenced Joe Allard's approach to sound production. The reason there's no "JA school" of playing is that Joe would have found the very idea an abomination. Music is music. Joe spent his entire teaching career developing techniques and information that would awaken the musical impulse in his students. Besides you and Harvey he taught Don Byron, Les Scott, Dave Tofani, Mike Brecker, Eric Dolphy and most of the successful commercial players in New York for lots of years. Like Harold Bennet (NY Opera Flutist) he changed the scene without prejudice or ego. A true Boddisatva.

Dave in NYC
 
#84 ·
I don't study music or anything, but I think (at least remembering back to what my instructor in high school was telling me) that Harvey Pittel is more in the French style. Pittel was my instructor's teacher and while I've never heard Pittel on anything other than soprano or alto, i did notice his sound qualities are basically how my instructor would teach me to play (I heard him play a little bit of one of the alto parts at a Solo & Ensemble event at UT Austin when I was there with a quartet). Basically open, clear sound. However, IMO, his playing and thus my teacher's, i've noticed, is a bit darker than some other folks that play in the French style.

Someone posted a clip of that guy giving a vibrato lesson. That guy's sound is basically what I think of or hear when I hear most folks playing in that style. Pretty much everyone in the area where I'm from were taught to play like that except our teaching also emphasized having a dark sound, and from what I've heard of Pittel (admittedly not much) on alto, I think that's where that comes from. I hope I'm not assuming too much when I think that I got an idea of how his alto sound would be on tenor and that "sound" in my head is what I think of when I would hear my instructor play. Main thing I'm trying to say is that we were taught that a dark sound is good and always try to have a dark sound, along with that other stuff (clear, full, and open sound).

Consequently, I think my sound is a bit darker than my the one my high school instructor played with because I would always try getting my sound as dark as possible while still having it clear, but also cus I got a Selmer S90 mouthpiece and pretty much everyone else(including the instructor) would play with an S80 mouthpiece. The S90 has a bigger chamber and sounds noticeably darker. Dunno how a listener would perceive the difference, but it's noticeable to me.

But anyways, yeah I guess even among schools there are different sounding folks. In the French style there are some folks that sound a little brighter(for classical anyways) and others make a point to have a dark sound.


*********************************************

edit - I find it interesting that on this forum people are always saying that no, or relatively few, saxophone players will sound very similar. Is that something that only happens after years of playing or is it cus of different influences while learning or something? Cus most folks in my area that learn saxophone in school band are mainly taught classical music and we're pretty much taught the same stuff. So basically all the folks that are good at classical music around here all sound the same or very similar with the exception of a few.
 
#86 ·
Someone posted a clip of that guy giving a vibrato lesson. That guy's sound is basically what I think of or hear when I hear most folks playing in that style.
By "that guy" are you talking about this video?

If so, "that guy" is Tim McAllister and is also not a french-style player. He studied with Don Sinta at UMichigan forever. To use the schools, he's very much an american style player.
 
#88 ·
well then I stand corrected :oops:

Someone posted a clip of that guy giving a vibrato lesson. That guy's sound is basically what I think of or hear when I hear most folks playing in that style.
By "that guy" are you talking about this video?

If so, "that guy" is Tim McAllister and is also not a french-style player. He studied with Don Sinta at UMichigan forever. To use the schools, he's very much an american style player.
Yeah, that guy. Well anyways, looks like I was wrong, lol. Isn't the first time and won't be the last :D

Guess i either misremember what my high school instructor told me or I misinterpreted him cus I wasn't paying close attention....but more likely some combination of those two options :D

Anyways, in that case, can someone post a link to someone playing in the French style then? Also, what differentiates the French and American schools?
 
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