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Vintage of Modern Soprano?

7K views 40 replies 14 participants last post by  bruce bailey 
#1 ·
Vintage or Modern Soprano?

I've been playing saxophone on & off for 17 years now, both tenor and soprano. Not gigging, just for myself. I'm really digging the soprano but I'm not feeling particularly inspired by my (modern) black nickel tipped-bell soprano. Pretty ugly. So I'm in the market for a new or used soprano and have a budget of up to $1,500 (which I could stretch). Hard to decide what I should get ... a new horn with modern key layout or a pretty vintage horn?

So I've been thinking maybe a Antigua or Kessler for around $1k. Good sound, modern keys, but not exactly horns I would look at and say "wow!"
Then there's the "intermediate" horns by Yani/Vito, Jupiter, a Selmer SS600, etc.
... or should I go for a vintage soprano, Conn, Buffet, Evette & Schafer?

How playable are these vintage horns (provided that they have no leaks and fresh pads) sound-wise and in terms of action?

Thanks for providing some "data points" in my decision process! :mrgreen:
 
#2 ·
I don't think you can go wrong with a yani. They have the more modern ergos and sound good. I wouldn't call the stencils an 'intermediate' either. I picked up a vito sop for $700 that is great. Also, they were stenciled as Martins as well. All essentially the same horn.

If you were to go with the vintage, I would suggest a buescher or conn (most likely you would want to make sure they are keyed in Bb). For a unique sound an SML if you can find one.
 
#3 ·
If you decide on the $1000 route, you should also consider the Crescent by Just Saxes. Palo is great to work with and you can get a gold plated model for about the same price. I bought the two you mentioned and the Crescent, but still own only the Crescent. I also played it against a friend's Yanagisawa 991(which is what all three of these copy) and was surprised at the relatively small differences I noticed. Keep in mind that I'm very much an amateur.
 
#4 ·
I'd put my 1927 Conn NW II up against any modern soprano - and I've owned and played a bunch of both vintage and modern sopranos. The differences in keywork mean nothing to me. However, keywork may be important to others. I've always quickly adapted to ergos and the lack of a front-F or articulated G#/C# on vintage sopranos was no problem, ether.

To my eyes, there isn't much better than a well-preserved, plated vintage soprano (Conn, Martin, Buescher, mainly) for looks. They seem to have much more character than the new ones, but that's just me. DAVE
 
#6 ·
I am a player and collector and I prefer vintage horns. In my mind nothing compares to their beauty and it is cool to own a piece of history. I have learned to adjust to the ergos. Whether vintage or modern, learning the ins and outs of a horn are what makes the journey worthwhile so pick the horn that will inspire you to keep playing.

For me, my sop is a 1927 Martin Handcraft.
 
#9 ·
You can do better if you want a vintage soprano.

The first "Conn" is a non-Conn sax that was stenciled. I believe these are Keilwerths, good saxes, but not vintage. This is not a vintage "Lady Face" Conn from the 30s or 40s as they didn't make any of those in soprano. This is a modern soprano of reasonable quality. Being an Ebay listing from Sam Ash, I would assume it needs significant pad and cork work. If the price is really $1300, that sounds reasonable to me.

The second Conn looks like it's been partially scratch-brushed and relacquered, maybe in an attempt to mimic the appearance of a gold plated horn. No telling what the quality of the pad and cork work is. For 1900 I would definitely pass.

The third Conn looks reasonable, but I don't think 2 grand is a very good price for a nickel plated Conn. Usually the silver and gold plate Conn sopranos go for $2000 or less, and their market value is considerably higher than the nickel plate horns.
Both of the real Conns have the dreaded thumb ring which some people like and some hate. Personally, I hate it.

The Buffet has been buffed to death and is only keyed to high Eb.

The East German soprano, who knows what it is?

When you can get silver or gold plate Conn Holton Martin or Buescher sopranos from known ethical vendors for between $1000 and $1500, requiring somewhere between no work at all and several pads replaced with a regulation, those Ebay horns don't look attractive at all.
 
#8 ·
Looking at a few of them, the first Conn from Sam Ash looks like it is a Keilwerth from the 70s or 80s. Might be a great horn.

The Buffet looks pretty but it's like turn of the century old.

Another Conn is the better choice than the silver (I think nickel) plated horn.

No comment on the B&S.

good luck
 
#11 ·
Turf3 is right. Barodi fooled me into thinking it is gold plated. I still think the silver Conn is nickel and overpriced. I have a burnished gold Chu for a few hundred more.

My tech friend Bill King in Ft. Pierce Fl has a never lacquered, overhauled NW2. He was asking $1200. PM if you'd like to try to contact him.
 
#25 ·
My tech friend Bill King in Ft. Pierce Fl has a never lacquered, overhauled NW2. He was asking $1200. PM if you'd like to try to contact him.
I bought it! Can't wait to receive it from Bill in a few days.

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#12 ·
I have had most of the available vintage model sopranos and I liked them all. But, I have purchased an H Couf Superba soprano with a nice overhaul for around 1450 and I think it is the best soprano I've ever played. I'd look for one of those if I were you.
 
#15 ·
It would have been an interesting side-by-side to put the Conn DJH against the Couf. I would imagine they are darn close to each other, actually....DJH's were superlative horns, having refurbed a good half-dozen of 'em.

My tech friend Bill King in Ft. Pierce Fl has a never lacquered, overhauled NW2. He was asking $1200. PM if you'd like to try to contact him.
That sounds like a pretty nice deal, if a player doesn't mind a bare brass horn....
 
#13 ·
You guys rock, I am learning so much here!

Conn Naked Lady: You are right that this is not a vintage Naked Lady. According to saxpics.com: "DJH engraving on the bell was something that Daniel Henkin was fond of doing during his ownership of Conn (1980-1985). It was during this period that Conn was reestablished back in Elkhart, Indiana. These horns are ... in turn, Keilwerth Toneking/New King (series IV) stencils."

Meister/Weltklang/B&S Stencil: I submitted an offer, just for fun, and the seller made a $650.- counter offer. That's a great price for a decent horn. But its not even half my budget and I think I should go for something different and spoil myself a little more. :bluewink:

None of these two are true vintage sopranos, though.

The Conn sold by George Borodi is tempting. If I'd buy it, I know it would play well and hustle-free for a while.

A lot to consider before pulling the trigger.
 
#14 ·
Meister/Weltklang/B&S Stencil: I submitted an offer, just for fun, and the seller made a $650.- counter offer. That's a great price for a decent horn. But its not even half my budget and I think I should go for something different and spoil myself a little more. :bluewink:
Ugh.....that's a pretty fair counter offer...I bet you could counteroffer $600 and take it. Then even if it needs $300-400 of tech work, which is a pretty significant amount of tech work....you would still have gotten a very NICE horn for your investment. The $ you saved could be put towards a couple of excellent mouthpieces.
Just sayin'.

None of these two are true vintage sopranos, though.
?????? 35-40 years old, either of them. Those are Vintage saxes.

You know, I LOVE oldie, oldie Littlehorns, but have to say...you'd probably have to woodshed with 'em to acquaint yourself with what would be an intonationally 'flexible' horn. It's no huge deal, but for a player who has not played a lotta soprano, or for a player who has... but is used to modern horns, there is an adjustment curve there.

The Germans are a bit more straight-up-the-middle as far as that goes.

For the flak Borodi sometimes takes (and some of it is deserved insofar as his communication skills) everyone who I have known who actually owned one of these 'bling' overhaul horns of his was happy with it as far as the performance and mechanical function. He may sometimes hurt himself by getting creative with the refinishing, but I have never heard that his refurbs fall short as musical instruments. And he does offer Best Offer along with a guarantee, so I'd imagine one could take this for around $150 less than BIN, at least.
 
#24 ·
Good to see you and everyone else again! I took a long break because "career" got in the way, but I'm back in the shed! :mrgreen:
 
#23 ·
I talked to the Sam Ash folks yesterday. They said that the Conn DJH Modified is not in playing condition and they sent it off to a tech to get it fixed. The Ebay auction is still live, but they don't have the instrument at the moment until it comes back from the tech guy, which could take a couple of weeks.
 
#31 ·
It won't win a beauty contest, but the sound and actions are fantastic. Loving it!

Bill King, the tech I bought it from, said he got it from a widow 30+ years ago. It was owned by a professional vaudeville player and the case has stickers from places all over the world. I wonder in how many speak easy bars it has been played during prohibition! This could be a "one owner" instrument. :mrgreen:

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#34 ·
Actually, it is needed. It holds down the E key when you lift RH middle finger from the E to make that alt. Eb open.

Buescher uses a regular bar shape. I think H.N White King also used a little pearl on the D.

Glad to hear Stefan is enjoying the soprano!
 
#35 ·
Robert: Huh?

I have a NWII straight soprano (1927) with that curious little touch on the D padcup and I'll be darned if I can figure out what it does - or the value of it. I have my forked alternate Eb closed so I don't use THAT feature but the little pearl-touch on the D padcup makes no sense to me.

It is like a bis-E thing - all it does is allow the player to play a D without using the R-3 finger. Instead, one slides his R-2 finger down a bit and can play D that way. I agree with Bruce about it.

By the way, MY NWII is a superb soprano - every bit better than anything modern I've owned or played. DAVE
 
#38 ·
It is not a "touch". It is simply the means to effect the linkage between the two pad cups. For some reason, some older sopranos used a pearl holder (sometimes with pearl in) to make that linkage rather than a plain bar. There is no expectation that you would ever actually place your fingertip on it. The function is exactly the same whether it's a round part as shown or a rectangular bar.

Now as to why that's there, whether it be made from a pearl holder or just an ordinary bar, it's so the fork Eb will work. On a horn with the fork Eb, the RH 3rd finger key holds down the key just above it, so you can lift the RH 2nd finger to open the fork Eb pad and sound the Eb.

Personally I like very much the fork Eb and find it useful for a number of arpeggios, but I don't practice using it because only two of my horns (bari and soprano) have it and the alto, tenor, and bass don't. So I don't want to get used to it and then find it not there when I really need it. This key and fingering are much maligned but anyone with basic competence in regulating a saxophone can set it up so it doesn't leak, just like you have to do with all the stack keys that require multiple pads to close at the same time.

I remember back in the day the fork Eb key was called the "bastard" key by technicians who didn't want to fool with it. Sometimes this went so far as to actually solder a piece of brass over the tone hole. Those were also some of the same people who told me that a late 40s Conn was completely unplayable, as well as the guy who took all the set screws out of my Conn 10M (either he didn't want to fool with them, or he was building his own collection). Oh yes, all the technicians who told me that it was impossible to play a 1920s soprano in tune. And so on.

Those of us who play older instruments really ought to think back from time to time on the 1970s and realize how much better we have it today in many ways, when people don't consider our all-pearl side keys King Super 20s or silver Conn M series saxes, or Buescher 400s, as "crappy student horns" and do a crummy half-arsed job of any repair.
 
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