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SBA Original Lacquer or Relacquer? Please share your opinions.

3K views 23 replies 11 participants last post by  sugaki 
#1 ·
Hello everyone,
I'm looking at buying an early SBA and can't determine for sure if it's original lacquer or an old relacquer. The seller doesn't know for sure as he's had it only a short time. Simon and Paul at Tenor Madness couldn't be certain either way.
Any thoughts / opinions are appreciated!
 

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#3 ·
I don’t know if anyone can tell by the photos on here. You have to have some sharper photos.
It seems the seller would know and it would be priced accordingly. I don’t think it’s too much to ask, but that’s the way I approach it.
If he doesn’t know, it should be sold at a re-lacquer price.
 
#7 ·
I don't know if anyone can tell by the photos on here. You have to have some sharper photos.
It seems the seller would know and it would be priced accordingly. I don't think it's too much to ask, but that's the way I approach it.
If he doesn't know, it should be sold at a re-lacquer price.
+1...
 
#4 ·
Thanks! It's priced like a re-lacquer. The shop that did the overhaul on it knew the history on the horn and thought it to be original lacquer as well but couldn't be 100% certain either. it was previously owned by the same guy for 30 years before the current seller obtained it. In the end it's not a huge deal if it's a relac just wanting to learn more and how to spot certain things. The seller is a great guy and not a flipper.
 
#12 ·
Thanks! It's priced like a re-lacquer. The shop that did the overhaul on it knew the history on the horn and thought it to be original lacquer as well but couldn't be 100% certain either. it was previously owned by the same guy for 30 years before the current seller obtained it. In the end it's not a huge deal if it's a relac just wanting to learn more and how to spot certain things. The seller is a great guy and not a flipper.
It's priced like a re-lac and has just been overhauled. If you like how it plays, man I'd get it and not worry about the lacquer.

Having said that, if those guys at tenor madness couldn't say for sure, examining the horn in person, how are we to know looking at some photos? But just based on those photos, the engraving looks fairly sharp and the lacquer looks to be in the kind of condition orig lac would be in. So I'd guess (yeah, guess) it's original.

But if it's priced right and in top playing condition and you want it, I'd say it doesn't really matter.
 
#6 ·
It would take detailed pics. The lacquer color looks a little pale but what I can see of the detail work (like the chain-link figuring around the bell bands) looks good from a distance. That's the second Super Action I've seen lately with that peculiar engraving.
 
#8 ·
My initial reaction is relaq just because of color, but need close-up shots, having a bunch of lower resolution pics of the whole horn won't be of much help. Close-up of engraving, stamping on bell, serial number, female end of neck tenon, neck grid logo would be better indicators.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for all of your feedback. Here are some additional photos close up.
 

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#13 ·
Thanks, good advice! The guys at Tenor Madness only had the pictures to look at as well and I haven't seen the horn in person or played it yet. It's an afternoon to go look at it which is why I was looking for some feedback before I spent the time. If it plays great I'll likely buy it. The lacquer on this one was somewhere in between so I was curious what others thought about it. The seller is a great guy and has definitely tried to be very honest about the horn.
 
#14 ·
The guys at Tenor Madness only had the pictures to look at as well and I haven't seen the horn in person or played it yet.
Got it. That makes sense. They wouldn't want to say for sure looking at a photo. I'd definitely go check it out in person and play test it. That's really the best approach. You say that whoever did the overhaul couldn't say for sure if it was original lacquer, but if it was an obvious relac, with the engraving filled in, &/or over-buffed with the tone holes sanded down, they certainly would have noticed and been able to say for sure that it was a relac. In any case, it's certainly worth checking out...
 
#16 ·
What is this horn, about 70 years old? Well played throughout its run? If it was overhauled any time between the 50's and 70's, it likely was relacquered as a matter of course; and thus plenty of time would have passed to allow its current finish to degrade. To me, the engraving appears zippered in spots, but your photos aren't the best. The points where the key guards attach to the body also appear more rounded than pointed, and those are areas that tend to get buffed. How about the pearls? Are they original? Do the ones that are seldom used show lacquer stains? Take a close look at the lacquer that remains near the engraving and serial number. Can you spot scratches underneath the coat of lacquer?

You see, judging a relacquer depends upon a multitude of clues, and not all techs are well versed in figuring them out. I often post photos of my old SBA alto, which numerous folks believed to be original lacquer. Some techs who had it in their hands thought it was original lacquer. But then by pure chance, I took it to a tech who had actually relacquered it for its former owner. Case closed.

The horn is priced as a relacquer. No one has affirmatively 100% told you it's original. So to keep shopping for an opinion that will tell you it is original lacquer might be seen as a way to pump up the value for a potential flip. Just being frank with you here.

If you have to ask...
 
#17 ·
What they said - can't tell for sure. BTW, isn't the serial number in the Balanced Action range? Didn't the Super Action have the one-piece B-Bb key guard and what was to become the MK VI octave rocker? I believe you are looking at a Balanced Action.

Second thoughts on the lacquer; my problem is I don't know if things were being done the same way then as they were later in Elkhart where they lacquered the saxes and then engraved them. I believe yours was lacquered after engraving which either makes it correct or a relacquer based on how they did things then. The problem with engraving before lacquer is the engraving process will mess up the polish and the time it takes will allow oxidation to begin which will cause the lacquer to not stick, so what would happen is they would do the engraving before the final polish, which can 'soften' the engraving and fill it with lacquer. This is why its done the other way, or at least was done that way for many years.
It is entirely possible that the horn is an old Selmer factory overhaul. If you'll notice on the bell key pads, you can see that there is lacquer on the pads. This is because Selmer lacquered the saxes fully-assembled. This means the pads we see with lacquer on them are either the original pads or those from a Selmer overhaul because nobody else did this. When Selmer discontinued this service it was a blow to all sax players because nobody did an overhaul like those guys who were also the ones who assembled and finished the saxes originally. They used the same lacquer, the real pads, the same cork, felt and springs, and they had parts if they needed them. Plus, they did an extremely careful polish which did minimal damage. My mentor had his MK VI done several times and it still had crisp engraving and always looked new.
So that's where I am on it. The Selmer 'Gold Lacquer', the careful polishing, lacquer on the pads, it all adds up. In fact it may have had more than one factory overhaul.
 
#18 ·
Thanks for all the updated information! I'm not looking to flip the horn at all, and it's not a value thing so much as I am always interested in learning more for you guys that are experts and have some great knowledge to pass along so thank you.

1 saxman really appreciate the explanation on the factory relacquers!

It's sort of like a mystery with certain clues that lead to a conclusion one way or the other. For me it's about the way the horn plays and I'll find that out on Tuesday. I just thought sharing the photos and information helps all of us that love these vintage horns whether they are original lacquer or re-lacquer they are still great. Thank you again.
 
#21 ·
Just to close out this thread, I drove a couple of hours each way to go look at the horn and it was a relacquered horn. The color was light yellow and there were a few spots where it was obvious the engraving was buffed on the edges and the new lacquer filled in. The two spots most noticeable were on the side where the lacquer would naturally wear if you played the horn to the side, and on the bottom curve of the bow on the backside in particular. The engraving was not crisp and filled in. It looked to me like it was one of those horns that probably had very few spots where the buffing took place because much of even the very fine engraving on other parts of the horn was still evident. Perhaps a relacquer very early in it's life as Grumps mentioned was common, especially for big bands where everyone had to have a shiny horn.
The horn played really well but felt a little loose to me and the thumb rest had been changed over to a Mark VI style which was probably more comfortable but not original. In the end I passed on the horn, it just didn't feel like a horn that I would want to keep and I'm not into flipping horns so it was best to have someone else enjoy the horn. It's obviously a short bell and that didn't add to my desire for the horn. The seller was cool but was still trying to convince himself that it was original lacquer and I'm quite certain it was not. Thanks again for all the input and learning.
 
#22 ·
Thanks for the followup.

You reaffirm that there is nothing like having the horn in your hands to evaluate its lacquer and playing condition. This also underscores that not every "overhaul" is equally good.

G'luck on your quest.
 
#23 ·
Thanks Dr. G. The guy ended up listing it on eBay and had 1 snipe bid at $5987 so who knows if he sold it to himself under another eBay account or it actually sold. What was interesting is that it was clearly a relacquered horn and I pointed out to him where it was buffed and yet he still listed it as original lacquer. Obviously with nobody bidding on it until the last second at that price people in the know didn't think it was original but it's amazing to me that people will be that way. He also didn't mention the original thumb rest was replaced and the photos were taken in such a way you couldn't see that. The more I look the more I'm convinced as you say that you have to see something in person otherwise it's a big risk, especially on eBay.
 
#24 ·
Yeah definitely not a horn I would've risked bidding on, the color of the lacquer didn't seem dark enough for its vintage. Glad you passed on it.

I've sold a horn to someone before, where I've specifically sold it as a relaq, only for it to be listed later on down the line as original. Go figure.
 
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