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Mark vi neck alterations?

5K views 22 replies 10 participants last post by  saxoclese 
#1 ·
Hey folks,
Curious to hear about neck alterations on vi’s. I picked up an original vi neck from Peter Ponzol (sold on eBay) a couple years ago that was apparently a back up neck he owned. The neck has had the cork end opened up considerably and in the process a spiral ‘rifled ‘ into the interior, similar to the grooves on some modern Selmers which I forget how they market that. Anyhow, this is my main neck and plays super well on my horn, but I’m curious if this is a common alteration or the result of a crazy experiment. Peter Ponzol stated he didn’t know who did the work originally. Here’s the text from the original eBay listing:

“Hi, this is Peter Ponzol and up for auction is an early Mark VI tenor neck. How old I don't know as there were no serial numbers put on necks that did not come with a horn.. It's been in my possession since the mid 70's and was the backup neck for the Mark VI tenor I sold to Mike Brecker around 1979 before I moved to Germany. It has been relacquered at some point, which doesn't mean much on a neck. The bore at the mouthpiece end has had some ridges machined into the very beginning, which I tried to show in a photo. It has never been pulled down. This is a very unusual neck. Very free playing with a big sound. Buy it for a VI tenor that is missing a neck or buy it for something different for any VI that has a tenon size of 27: 55, the size of most early VI necks. Of course the tenon might need to be adjusted to fit your horn as well as the octave key. Please do not bid unless you have positive feedback.”
 
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#2 ·
Very rarely do I hear of or see altered Mark VI necks, especially since machined ridges definitely fall into the category of crazy experimental. I hear of modern necks being modified for intonation, but VI necks are too valuable for that to be commonplace.

How's the intonation with the cork end opened up? Suppose it could've been done to sharpen the upper octave notes.
 
#3 ·
If it was done in the 70's, the replacement necks weren't that expensive then. I've seen quite a few with patched mic holes in them.
I don't think you'd see many guys doing that now. I you want to experiment with necks, I'd suggest buying a blister pack of Chinese necks and have at it. Messing with your original would be a great way to devalue your sax for no reason.
 
#4 ·
Ha, yes I’ve been down the neck trial road and don’t plan to go that route anymore. The original neck never played well on this horn, it had sustained trauma as a Hs horn originally. I’ve had a boesken neck, later vi neck, Ponzol aftermarket modern neck, and I tried a couple of Schucht necks. I bid on the altered vi neck on a whim, I really liked the aftermarket Ponzol neck so I figured I’d give it a try. Plays great, intonation is fine. Definitely plays much less resistant and wider than the later vi necks I’ve tried. (My horn is a 183,xxx).
 
#6 ·
I had a JustSaxes Crescent tenor with both gold and silver necks. The silver one is the 'fat' neck. It had the spiraling in the neck, the same or similar to your description. I think it was put that way with a tenon expander as a way of expanding the bore.

So, is the opening of the Ponzol neck the same as an original?
 
#7 ·
The opening of the aftermarket Ponzol modern neck is quite big, I don’t remember the figures at present; I did measure them with digital calipers. If I remember the stock vi neck was smallest, this modified vi neck (owned by Ponzol) was bigger, close to the aftermarket Ponzol I think.
 
#8 ·
As much as I hate to quote this individual, this is on point to the topic of this thread.

From "A Saxophonists Guide to Necking"
Substantial anecdotal evidence indicates that the performance of the saxophone, particularly with regard to the response of the very lowest tones, can be improved through "rifling" the initial two inches of the neck with a somewhat coarse thread. This procedure appears to significantly to reduce the "motorboating" and burbling which often plagues saxophones around low C and low B.
Said individual also offered a few models of saxophones with the opening of the necks "rifled". To be best of my knowledge there was just one major company that did this to their soprano necks. There are no acoustic studies to date that can verify these claims of what this "rifling" can do.
 
#9 ·
Oleg (owner of Oleg Products) was at one time modifying Mark VI necks by changing the internal dimensions using a metal tool that he'd insert in the neck. He did Brecker's neck, but Brecker ended up looking for a replacement Mark VI neck. Don't know if Oleg still provides that service.
 
#11 ·
The acoustics of these neck taper adjustments is interesting. When a conical tube is made more cylindrical by widening the small end or reducing the large end, the octaves get wider. Once you have gone so far as to make the cone a true cylinder the "octave" widens to the point that it becomes an octave and a fifth as on a clarinet. When a conical tube is make more conical by reducing the small end or widening the large end, the octaves get smaller. This was done to a true tone neck I sent to Mark Aaronson to adjust, so the upper octave notes G and above were not as sharp. I understand that Curt Altarac at Music Medic is making the same kind of neck adjustments when necessary.
 
#16 ·
Selmer started putting the 'threads' on the inside of the tenon, calling it a 'Booster' neck, and they continue to do so. Don't forget, none of these things are aerodynamic in nature since there is no high-speed air in a sax. Surface roughness and certain irregularities inside necks and mouthpieces have effects on playing. Putting the 'threads' on the mouthpiece end of the neck is interesting but one would presume Selmer tried that and preferred them more 'downstream' but there is no guarantee of that. Opening the 'mouth' of the neck is a well-known practice that is done for certain reasons. Having a neck with both things done would be interesting to play. To me the question is simply 'How does it play?' and the OP answered that at the top, saying it plays great. This is a case of not 'looking a gift horse in the mouth' - IOW, it works - why ask why? Does Selmer 'know' in the scientific sense exactly why their Booster necks work? How about every other little thing that has been done to their saxes over the last century? I guess probably they do not know and probably don't care - they tried it, it worked and the saxes sold; end of story.
 
#17 ·
To paraphrase Benade: Surface roughness "eats" energy when it is located at a velocity anti-node (maximum air flow). Porosity "eats" energy when it is located at a pressure anti-node (maximum pressure). Putting threads in the area of a saxophone's neck tenon removes energy from the note that has a velocity anti-node. There seems to be a lot of mythology associated with this particular area of the saxophone including the heavy mass ergonomic neck screw and the lefreque. At least the threading is done inside the tube rather than adding mass to the outside.
 
#18 ·
To paraphrase Benade: Surface roughness "eats" energy when it is located at a velocity anti-node (maximum air flow). Porosity "eats" energy when it is located at a pressure anti-node (maximum pressure). Putting threads in the area of a saxophone's neck tenon removes energy from the note that has a velocity anti-node.
Thanks for that, John. In the case of a saxophone of relatively constant taper, where are the points of maximum pressure and velocity? The obvious first guess would be that they both occur at the region of smallest cross-section, closest to the mouthpiece. What am I missing?

Further, could you describe the difference between surface roughness and porosity in the context of the saxophone? Or is it perhaps most relevant in the case of a wooden bore?
 
#20 ·
So pressure and velocity, as cited in this context, are both relative to sound speed, vs air flow?

Thank you.
 
#21 ·
This link contains an animated graphic that shows the nodes and anti-nodes of both pressure and displacement in a way that is easy to understand. nodes and anti-nodes

On p.470 FMA Benade states that there is a "pressure node" at the junction of the main bore with the (oboe) reed staple which in the case of the saxophone is the neck. This "pressure node" is the same location as the "displacement" (air movement) anti-node which is roughly located where the note F#3 is vented. Why creating "perturbations" in the bore by adding "riflings" at this location would have a positive effect is anyone's guess. In a saxophone with smooth, polished walls most of the energy loss is thermal with the movement of the soundwaves "heating" the walls of the instrument. If the inside of the sax or neck were not clean, then porosity and roughness would come into play as it does on poorly maintained wooden instruments.
 
#22 ·
This link contains an animated graphic that shows the nodes and anti-nodes of both pressure and displacement in a way that is easy to understand. nodes and anti-nodes

On p.470 FMA Benade states that there is a "pressure node" at the junction of the main bore with the (oboe) reed staple which in the case of the saxophone is the neck. This "pressure node" is the same location as the "displacement" (air movement) anti-node which is roughly located where the note F#3 is vented.
Is the location of any node not frequency dependent?

Why creating "perturbations" in the bore by adding "riflings" at this location would have a positive effect is anyone's guess.
At first pass, riflings are changing half the local area to a different bore diameter. It occurs to me that this is also the location that some sops have a marked step in the bore. Do we know the "Why?" of that?

In a saxophone with smooth, polished walls most of the energy loss is thermal with the movement of the soundwaves "heating" the walls of the instrument.
Is that the actual definition of thermal energy loss in this context, or is referring to the local slowing of molecules due to imperfect elastic interactions?

Thanks for this, John. It is pressing me to revisit some of my work from long ago, and trying to fit it in a new (to me) context.
 
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