Opinions on Conn 10M finish

Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    211
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    I recently picked up a 1936 Conn 10M tenor in pretty rough shape. I would guess it has maybe 20% or less of lacquer remaining on the body.
    Most of the finish has become reddish in color (with a few green spots here and there). I am going to have the horn fully overhauled by
    my tech. I'm wondering if I should just have him give the sax a chem bath, or should I have him strip the remaining lacquer off and just
    go with an unlacquered horn? What are the pros and cons of each?IMG_4156.jpgIMG_4155.jpgIMG_4157.jpg

  2. Remove Advertisements
    SaxOnTheWeb.net
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2016
    JayeLID's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lost in desert
    Posts
    14,662
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    Plenty of threads on bare brass horns in the Body and Finish section of the Forum. Here's just one of several:

    https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...ght=bare+brass

    and...

    https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...age-bare-brass

    Nice horn. Your choices:

    1) Just have tech chem bathe the horn, then hand-polish it afterward (or once bath is done, take it back from him for a day and hand-polish it yourself then return it to him). But it's really important to do the hand-polish afterward because a chem bath and soap rinse alone will NOT end up with a particularly good looking body.

    Then just leave it with the 20% lacq; if you take care of the horn, wipe off any moisture/water on outside after playing, etc...maybe occasionally polish what you can of body and keys just with a dry-polishing cloth like a Blitz, it will likely patina down but never return to the state it's in now. Or rather, it'll take quite a while to, and likely over the years once in a while while getting horn serviced you can spring for a chem-bath again (talking like maybe every 3-4 years or more).

    2) Have him strip the remaining lacquer, chem bathe, then polish and buff up to a lustre so it's a bare-brass, shiny horn. (Yeah, yeah...to any of you people seeing the word 'buff' and getting ready to freak : save it for someone else; I am talking a fine buffing rouge and a tech who knows how to work a buffing wheel very well. No harm, and it looks fantastic, really).
    Then same thing applies as above - just take care of it. Some folks here also recommend a variety of wax-like products on bare brass horns. I don't ever do that, but others speak highly of some.

    Many suggestions in those above threads....

    3) Consider a relacquer or a new plating. Both cost about the same (NOT cheap, but...). The relacq will decrease the market value of the horn, as you probably know - but nothing wrong with a good, professional relacq. The plating (silver, nickel, gold) will actually not make the market value take a hit even though it is not a factory finish.

    MY 2 cents.
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

    (AdBlock Plus is your Friend https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/fir.../adblock-plus/)

  4. #3
    saxoclese's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    752
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    There is another alternative to polishing the bare brass to a shine. That is to do a scratch brush finish. This is a YAS-23 that my shop apprentice removed the remaining lacquer, removed the nickel plating from the keys and gave it a satin (brushed) finish. Upon giving it a coat of Renaissance wax, the color darkened slightly.



  5. Remove Advertisements
    SaxOnTheWeb.net
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    211
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    Thanks for your input. One question: When you talk about hand-polishing, what product would you recommend?
    I have used Maas Metal Polish (https://www.amazon.com/Maas-Internat.../dp/B0008D7IV8)
    and it works well on nickel plating. It specifically says "do not use on lacquered items", so I'm not sure if it should be used
    on this sax.

  7. #5
    Administrator Pete Thomas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Blue Ridge Mountains
    Posts
    24,733
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    Quote Originally Posted by pumseig View Post
    Thanks for your input. One question: When you talk about hand-polishing, what product would you recommend?
    I have used Maas Metal Polish (https://www.amazon.com/Maas-Internat.../dp/B0008D7IV8)
    and it works well on nickel plating. It specifically says "do not use on lacquered items", so I'm not sure if it should be used
    on this sax.
    Well, it will help to remove some of the 20% remaining, whether that's a good or bad thing is up to you. IMO 20% more or less might as well go.

    If it was my horn I'd probably get it plated or relacquered (shock horror sacrilege!!!) but only if I could be sure of a job well done, ie not overbuffed.

    Jaye is right, relacquering will probably devalue (only a bit IMO in this case as it's so ugly right now - I hate red rot) whereas plating would probably not, most likely add some value if done well especially with a recut of the engraving. However that is not going to be cheap, and won't bring the added value up to what you put into it anyway.

    I'm not so sure about whether the red rot might actually react badly with replating, I'm no expert about that.
    TamingTheSaxophone.com saxophone website & tutorials
    Tone Without Tears: how to practise long notes without getting bored | PPT Mouthpieces | IMPRO FOR BEGINNERS | AUDIO



  8. #6
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Los Angeles County
    Posts
    13,593
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    Had to laugh out loud at JayePDX's remark about saving comments for someone else! Funny!

    I doubt if there is anything you could do to this horn that would further reduce its value unless you crushed it. As it stands now, even if it played, there aren't a lot of folks who would want to touch it, let along play it. Again, save your criticism . . . Regardless of which way you clean it up, I'd clean it up.

    I once acquired a total rust-bucket Springfield '03-A3 rifle from the WWI era. I had all of the metal parts re-Parkerized and sanded/oiled the stock. The purists cried, but the rifle turned out to be a real looker. It's a fine piece - I still have it. DAVE
    Dave

  9. #7
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2016
    JayeLID's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lost in desert
    Posts
    14,662
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    Quote Originally Posted by pumseig View Post
    Thanks for your input. One question: When you talk about hand-polishing, what product would you recommend?
    I have used Maas Metal Polish (https://www.amazon.com/Maas-Internat.../dp/B0008D7IV8)
    and it works well on nickel plating. It specifically says "do not use on lacquered items", so I'm not sure if it should be used
    on this sax.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Thomas View Post
    Well, it will help to remove some of the 20% remaining, whether that's a good or bad thing is up to you. IMO 20% more or less might as well go.
    Actually, it will not, really Something like Maas or Wenol red tube will not remove lacquer from an old horn.

    Something more caustic (like Noxon or Brasso) might, however...so don't use those.

    Yes, Maas w/ a microfibre cloth is a good choice to do a horn with after the chem bath. It will make it look a hecka lot better than just the chem bath will...and any lingering red rot post-chem bath will be removed as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Thomas View Post
    I'm not so sure about whether the red rot might actually react badly with replating, I'm no expert about that.
    Proper prepping of a bare brass horn for new plating would require the removal/eradication of all red rot. The thing about plating is (and relacquering to a degree too)..the prep work is of utmost importance; because the brass has to be really clean in order to be plated. An instrument plating company knows this process; it's pretty precise and IMHO should be left to them, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Dolson View Post
    Had to laugh out loud at JayePDX's remark about saving comments for someone else! Funny!
    Yah, sorry ...not to be a curmudgeon ...but it's just that on forums and chats and such, the term 'buffing' oftentimes has acquired negative connotations ...which is sorta absurd, really.
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

    (AdBlock Plus is your Friend https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/fir.../adblock-plus/)

  10. #8
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Los Angeles County
    Posts
    13,593
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    Nothing to be sorry about - I fully understood. DAVE
    Dave

  11. #9

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,202
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    That is one funky horn!

  12. #10
    saxoclese's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    752
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    The original nitrocellulose lacquer is easily removed by boiling. If you want to do the actual polishing of the keys and body yourself MAAS is an excellent polish for brass. I prefer it over Simichrome and Flitz because it is less aggressive and cleans up easily. It takes a lot of elbow grease, but it is a good do it yourself project if you want it to look nice and save some money while you are at it.

    This is a Mark VI Bari I removed the lacquer from using this method.

    Cooking Thanksgiving Bari.jpg


    Another option is to send it to Jaice Dumars to make it "pretty".

    Frankentenor.jpg

  13. #11
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    23,159
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    Quote Originally Posted by JayePDX View Post
    Proper prepping of a bare brass horn for new plating would require the removal/eradication of all red rot. The thing about plating is (and relacquering to a degree too)..the prep work is of utmost importance; because the brass has to be really clean in order to be plated. An instrument plating company knows this process; it's pretty precise and IMHO should be left to them, really.
    I had my Buescher soprano refinished/silver plated over a dozen years ago. It was red-rotting. I had a guy do it locally and it's held up quite well. The horn played great before the job and after.

    Silver plating the horn ain't gonna be cheap, and I'd only advise doing so if you knew the horn was a good fit to begin with (and with a 10M's known quirks, that's a gamble). Then again, first getting the horn in playing shape and then taking it apart to silver plate it... well, that's not cost effective. So it's really not an easy decision here. I don't know what the initial cost was, but an overhaul and silver plate job is going to cost about what the horn might be worth if it were in good playing shape and had a decent finish.

    Because I've had a 10M, and fell in and out of love with it, I'd have to advise not putting too much into it at first. Get it overhauled and cleaned up. Play it for a while, and then maybe down the road refinish it. Only then will you know if it will be worth it.

  14. #12

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    211
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumps View Post
    I had my Buescher soprano refinished/silver plated over a dozen years ago. It was red-rotting. I had a guy do it locally and it's held up quite well. The horn played great before the job and after.

    Silver plating the horn ain't gonna be cheap, and I'd only advise doing so if you knew the horn was a good fit to begin with (and with a 10M's known quirks, that's a gamble). Then again, first getting the horn in playing shape and then taking it apart to silver plate it... well, that's not cost effective. So it's really not an easy decision here. I don't know what the initial cost was, but an overhaul and silver plate job is going to cost about what the horn might be worth if it were in good playing shape and had a decent finish.

    Because I've had a 10M, and fell in and out of love with it, I'd have to advise not putting too much into it at first. Get it overhauled and cleaned up. Play it for a while, and then maybe down the road refinish it. Only then will you know if it will be worth it.

    Agree 100%. Since I have no idea how this horn will play (or if I will even like it) until after the overhaul, it doesn't make sense to have it re-plated or relacquered.
    Too costly- unless I was positive the sax was a keeper.

    Thanks to everyone who chimed in- I have a pretty good idea what needs to be done. I'll post pictures after the overhaul.

  15. #13
    Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    16,142
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Opinions on Conn 10M finish

    Well said, Grumps.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •