The Dahl Concerto
Viking Instruments
Hyson Music
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 65
  1. #1
    Forum Contributor 2015-2017
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    #ROUGHJAZZ
    Posts
    1,248
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default The Dahl Concerto

    I'm playing the Dahl Concerto and The altissimo if really really high. I was told I may have to more up a half size in reeds to make the extended altissimo a lil easier to play. It is really nesscessary to move up a half step?? Also is there any other recording out there of the Dahl, I know there is a Joe Lulloff recording, but I want a Sigurd Rascher recording.. Where can I order one???

  2. #2
    E-mail problem
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Buffalo, NY/Hattiesburg, MS
    Posts
    529
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    You can't "legally" get Mr. Rascher's recording of the Dahl (I believe there was a post about this earlier, concerning the person in S America selling all those saxophone recordings - I wouldn't recommend buying from him unless you want your sax prof to get upset! ). About the reeds, it's not really neccessary if you work on your voicing a lot - what strength reed do you normally play on (I'm assuming 3 1/2) - I play on 4's and it does make high notes a bit easier. I lose a few notes when I try a 3 1/2. Dahl is a big project - good luck!!!

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    1,523
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    There are several recordings of the Dahl out these days. I particularly enjoy Sugawas, Sinta's, and the 1949 version recorded by Rascher (though as mentioned, you cant get it 'legally'.

    As for reeds, I dont really think a harder reed will help. It may let you get the higher notes, but at what cost? How will your low notes sound? How will everything else respond. Of course, this is just how I feel. The decision all comes down to what you feel.

    And of course you can always not play all the altissimo. I think this is a perfectly acceptable performance practice. The only thing I would suggest you NOT do, is switch to sopranino for those parts. For some reason, the Harvey Pittle version suggests that......

    Steve P

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    12
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I agree with what was said before. Voicing/overtone work is the key to developing proficiency in the altissimo register. That said, using a harder reed with a thicker heart can give you a richer sound in the upper register, but be prepared to do some knife work to lengthen the bottom of the reed in order to make the low notes speak more easily. In the end, of course, harder reeds aren't a substitute for actual technique.

    By the way, having studied the Dahl with Mr. Pittel (and knowing many others who have as well), I don't think he really advocates using the sopranino. I know that it's marked as an option in his edition...perhaps someone encouraged that he put that suggestion in there? He tends to maintain that the altissimo at the climax of the second movement is absolutely necessary, while all the other stuff is comparatively negotiable (and that some passages, like the final altissimo passage of the second movement, sound better played down anyway). I've always performed the Dahl with the altissimo as written, except for that passage just mentioned. As Steve said, though, playing down an octave is nothing to be ashamed about, especially if that's all that's keeping you from working on one of the greatest pieces in our repertoire!

  5. #5
    Forum Contributor 2008 Michigansax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Rowlett, TX
    Posts
    363
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ahh...the Dahl Concerto....

    I spent a lot of time working on this piece back while I was doing my undergrad work at Baylor University. I strongly encourage you not to use a harder reed than normal for the sole purpose of playing those altissimo notes. My advice is to search until you find the reed that offers the best compromise. They are out there. Of the readily available recordings, I enjoy Sugawa's the best. You can order it here: http://www.koseicd.com/

    I also have a live performance that I did with the Baylor University Wind Ensemble that I can send you (or anybody who wants one).

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Tempe, AZ
    Posts
    566
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I haven't heard all of the recordings of the Dahl, but for a great example of the wind ensemble playing at the highest level would be John Harles version. I can't imagine the winds doing a better job.

    I think experimenting with a slightly harder reed is okay. It will help the upper register. SteveP mentioned that he does not advocate playing harder reeds for this purpose because your cost is too high in the low register. Well, I would have to agree to a point but there is another way to look at it. If you have not been studying altissimo in depth like maybe you should have, then maybe your reeds are already softer than they ought to be. Some might say, "why play a softer reed?", "sure, your lower register will improve, but at what cost?". It is just another way to look at it, but your reed should give you responsive notes well enough into the altissimo to play the Dahl, especially if you are playing a "modern" setup. If not, then maybe they are too soft to begin with.

    MichiganSax...I would be interested in a recording of your version of the Dahl. Let me know what you need.

    koa39 [at] hotmail.com

  7. #7
    Forum Contributor 2015-2017
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    #ROUGHJAZZ
    Posts
    1,248
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Post

    oops double post my bad
    Last edited by datsaxman; 12-11-2005 at 11:53 PM.

  8. #8
    Forum Contributor 2015-2017
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    #ROUGHJAZZ
    Posts
    1,248
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DWoz5000
    You can't "legally" get Mr. Rascher's recording of the Dahl (I believe there was a post about this earlier, concerning the person in S America selling all those saxophone recordings - I wouldn't recommend buying from him unless you want your sax prof to get upset! ). About the reeds, it's not really neccessary if you work on your voicing a lot - what strength reed do you normally play on (I'm assuming 3 1/2) - I play on 4's and it does make high notes a bit easier. I lose a few notes when I try a 3 1/2. Dahl is a big project - good luck!!!
    I play on 3's and I'm able to get up to a D easily.. after that my reed collasps and I'm not able to get too much higher than that.. A 3 reed is a great strength for me and it's the most balanced for me. I've been working out of my top tones for saxophone book, and it's making my altissimo range higher.. 3's jus seems like at times, they don't wanna hold up and they tend to whimp out at times..Michigan Sax I would love to had a recording of the Dahl. It's great to hear what other people that are near the same age are doing..

  9. #9
    Distinguished SOTW Member/ Forum Contributor 2011 awholley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,458
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I've been told that Rascher played on Vandoren #3 reeds, and if that's accurate, then it's possible. I can get to the E-F range (and sometimes F#) with that arrangement.

    You could also try some other reeds. For instance, try Alexander D.C. in 3.5 or 4 strength. They run softer than Vandoren blue box. A couple of weeks ago (on a good day) I got up the scale to C5 on a DC 4.

  10. #10
    Forum Contributor 2015-2017
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    #ROUGHJAZZ
    Posts
    1,248
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    my teacher plays on vandoren 3's and it's nothin for him to pop out a altissimo f... I'll try to alexander's though I had been thinkin about makin the switch to the classiques. But I'm not sure yet

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    1,523
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Some great things being said here. Good advice all around!

    As for reed strength, its a personal thing. Every mouthpiece is different, as is every player. Michigansax, ill send you an email later Id love to hear you play the dahl, especially since you have heard my recording of Holy Roller...

    Best,

    Steve P

  12. #12
    RickBusarow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,009
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Furtive Sax
    He tends to maintain that the altissimo at the climax of the second movement is absolutely necessary, while all the other stuff is comparatively negotiable (and that some passages, like the final altissimo passage of the second movement, sound better played down anyway).
    I think that the first and last altissimo passages in that second movement are linked - if you play one up (or down), you should do so with the other as well. But maybe I'm just imagining that. And IMHO, when played by someone with almost supernatural control of the register (like Sugawa), it sounds better up.

    I agree that the middle altissimo passage is vital - but it isn't just a question of hitting the notes. If, for example, the Ab3 is a quarter step sharp like in Harvey's Moving Along album (which can be purchased here, by the way), then you might as well just play it down (but never, ever on a sopranino).

    Datsaxman, before playing around with reed types and strengths, why not start with the more likely culprits? Are your mouthpiece's rails even? What kind is it? Is your horn leaking anywhere? What fingerings are you using? What embouchure are you using? I'm hesitant to blame the reeds because so many players do just fine on 3's. I personally use Vandoren 3's on my vintage Buescher piece (huge chamber, tiny tip opening - allegedly very bad for altissimo) and my range goes to a comfortable F4 (maybe F#4 or G4 - but they aren't comfortable).

    Nobuya Sugawa's version was recorded with the Tokyo Kosei Wind Orchestra on the album Rainbows and Concertos, number KOCD-3572. Like Michigansax said, it can be ordered from Koseicd.com - for a decent price, and with quick shipping.

    The John Harle version Kevin mentioned was recorded on Defining Dahl: the Music of Ingolf Dahl (Deca Argo 444 459-2) with the New World Symphony. You can order it used through Amazon here. I don't know of anywhere else to get it... You can hear three samples of it here, though.

    The Donald Sinta version is out of print, but I've just recently realized it's not all that hard to find in good university libraries. The title is Concerto for saxophone / Ingolf Dahl. Concerto for clarinet / Alvin Etler and it was released by University of Michigan Records in 1978.

    Timothy McAllister performed the piece in '97 with the University of Michigan Symphony Band. You can download the third movement off of his website here.

    Another much, much less known interpretation (which curiously, is much easier to get) is James Spinazzola's Discovery: Emerging and Celebrated Repertoire for Solo Saxophone and Symphonic Band (volume 1). It's not my favorite recording, or my second or third - but it's not terrible (and not the worst I've heard). It can be bought off of Amazon here.

    Looking up the url for Spinazzola's album, I learned that Harvey Pittel's put out another recording of the Dahl on the album La Linge - La Sonorité; A tribute to Marcel Mule (which is volume 3 in the Discovery series). That album can be bought from Amazon as well, here.

    I'm not sure if you know, Datsaxman, but the Rascher recordings (bootlegs) of the Dahl Concerto aren't of the same music that you and I play (or that you'll hear performed nearly anywhere else). The original version of the Dahl was considerably longer and considerably harder, in short, so that only Rascher could play the solo part, and only a few concert bands could play the accompaniment. Fed up with its rare performance, Dahl trimmed the piece down into the simple, easily accessible concerto we know today.

    Dr. Paul Cohen, here on the forums, is something of a Dahl expert - having written a 183 page book on the subject which can be purchased here. There's a short "teaser" essay of his floating around somewhere on the 'net. I tried to find it for you, but failed. I'm sure someone else in this thread has the link, though.

    Michigansax, I'd love to hear your version of the Dahl. My email is rickbusarow [at] gmail.com.
    Last edited by RickBusarow; 12-12-2005 at 04:32 PM.

  13. #13
    Distinguished SOTW Tech/Forum Contributor 2007
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    central MA
    Posts
    954
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned the hemke recording on the american saxophone. it is fantastic, it was on the american saxophone on brewster records, long out of print and hard to find, but it is in my opinion the best recording of the dahl from a saxophone playing perspective. i am saying this in comparision to the harle and the sinta and the rascher recordings.

    it is the piano version though.....

    i have a copy of that rascher recording and the sound on the copy i have is borderline unlistenable.

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    12
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RickBusarow
    I think that the first and last altissimo passages in that second movement are linked - if you play one up (or down), you should do so with the other as well. But maybe I'm just imagining that. And IMHO, when played by someone with almost supernatural control of the register (like Sugawa), it sounds better up.
    That's a good way of putting it! After reading that, I now recall that I prefer the first passage of the second movement down, as well...it always seems a little too (unintentionally) climactic to me.

    Sugawa is a wonderful player...I've never heard his Dahl, but will definitely look into it.

    I wasn't aware that there was a Hemke recording available. Interesting...!

  15. #15
    Forum Contributor 2008 Michigansax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Rowlett, TX
    Posts
    363
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    THe Hemke recording is good. However, I can't stand one thing about it. He COMPLETELY ignores the dynamics at the beginning of the second mvt. The arpeggio up to the alissimo E is marked pianissimo. He plays it fortissimo. It is completley out of context. Granted, it makes those notes easier to play but it demolishes that delicacy of the line. Just my opinion.....

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    A recording not yet mentioned that I would also recommend is the one by J÷rgen Pettersson with the Stockholm Symphonic Wind Orchestra. It may be out of print (couldn't find it on Tower's site, and Amazon says "currently not available"), but you can listen to samples of it on the Amazon page, here. You also might be able to find an unsold copy sitting in the (rarely-explored) band/wind ensemble section of one of the better-stocked CD stores.

    Pettersson is a fantastic player whom I think not enough people know about. His recordings are hard to find, but well worth the search.

  17. #17
    Forum Contributor 2015-2017
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    #ROUGHJAZZ
    Posts
    1,248
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RickBusarow
    I think that the first and last altissimo passages in that second movement are linked - if you play one up (or down), you should do so with the other as well. But maybe I'm just imagining that. And IMHO, when played by someone with almost supernatural control of the register (like Sugawa), it sounds better up.

    I agree that the middle altissimo passage is vital - but it isn't just a question of hitting the notes. If, for example, the Ab3 is a quarter step sharp like in Harvey's Moving Along album (which can be purchased here, by the way), then you might as well just play it down (but never, ever on a sopranino).

    Datsaxman, before playing around with reed types and strengths, why not start with the more likely culprits? Are your mouthpiece's rails even? What kind is it? Is your horn leaking anywhere? What fingerings are you using? What embouchure are you using? I'm hesitant to blame the reeds because so many players do just fine on 3's. I personally use Vandoren 3's on my vintage Buescher piece (huge chamber, tiny tip opening - allegedly very bad for altissimo) and my range goes to a comfortable F4 (maybe F#4 or G4 - but they aren't comfortable).

    Nobuya Sugawa's version was recorded with the Tokyo Kosei Wind Orchestra on the album Rainbows and Concertos, number KOCD-3572. Like Michigansax said, it can be ordered from Koseicd.com - for a decent price, and with quick shipping.

    The John Harle version Kevin mentioned was recorded on Defining Dahl: the Music of Ingolf Dahl (Deca Argo 444 459-2) with the New World Symphony. You can order it used through Amazon here. I don't know of anywhere else to get it... You can hear three samples of it here, though.

    The Donald Sinta version is out of print, but I've just recently realized it's not all that hard to find in good university libraries. The title is Concerto for saxophone / Ingolf Dahl. Concerto for clarinet / Alvin Etler and it was released by University of Michigan Records in 1978.

    Timothy McAllister performed the piece in '97 with the University of Michigan Symphony Band. You can download the third movement off of his website here.

    Another much, much less known interpretation (which curiously, is much easier to get) is James Spinazzola's Discovery: Emerging and Celebrated Repertoire for Solo Saxophone and Symphonic Band (volume 1). It's not my favorite recording, or my second or third - but it's not terrible (and not the worst I've heard). It can be bought off of Amazon here.

    Looking up the url for Spinazzola's album, I learned that Harvey Pittel's put out another recording of the Dahl on the album La Linge - La SonoritÚ; A tribute to Marcel Mule (which is volume 3 in the Discovery series). That album can be bought from Amazon as well, here.

    I'm not sure if you know, Datsaxman, but the Rascher recordings (bootlegs) of the Dahl Concerto aren't of the same music that you and I play (or that you'll hear performed nearly anywhere else). The original version of the Dahl was considerably longer and considerably harder, in short, so that only Rascher could play the solo part, and only a few concert bands could play the accompaniment. Fed up with its rare performance, Dahl trimmed the piece down into the simple, easily accessible concerto we know today.

    Dr. Paul Cohen, here on the forums, is something of a Dahl expert - having written a 183 page book on the subject which can be purchased here. There's a short "teaser" essay of his floating around somewhere on the 'net. I tried to find it for you, but failed. I'm sure someone else in this thread has the link, though.

    Michigansax, I'd love to hear your version of the Dahl. My email is rickbusarow [at] gmail.com.
    On a 3 I could could get as high as a d4 easily with a bad reed.. I don't really have any good reeds right now because they're all worn.. The main reason why i wanted to switch was because 3's really whip out fast. Durability is an issue more to me. Also I feel like the reed is paper thin when I get that high. I have to admit I don't have the voicing chops yet to get to an f4 coomfortably but up to a d4 I'm good. My embouchure's nice and stong and my professor suggested that I switch to a 3 1/2 for durability purposes. I'll jus have to make due with a 3 and continue to practice overtones...

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    366
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    A 3.5 strength reed should be able to assist you in developing your altissimo chops more. Since you've been playing on 3's for some time now, moving up to a 3.5 should not prove to be difficult. Invariably, as time goes on and your embouchure gets stronger, you will most likely have to move up a reed strength. Granted, you could experiment with different setups and mouthpiece facings, but most of the time there is always a compromise in tone quality and altissimo response. I had a great mouthpiece that played beautifully in the upper register, but after it was refaced some time ago, I can't play above an altissimo D. Just as a side note, when considering getting your mouthpiece refaced, make sure that you explain what you want done to your mouthpiece to the person actually doing the work. This saved my last two efforts in refacing.

    As to the comment earlier about the sound quality on Rascher's performance of the Dahl: keep in mind that this recording was made in 1949, on equipment that by today's standards is obsolete. Also, the band on the recording was not up to today's standards of wind playing. While at Dr. Cohen's home, I was fortunate enough to hear a performance of him playing the original Dahl with the Baldwin-Wallace Wind Ensemble. Great playing on both parts.
    Brian Kauth

  19. #19
    Distinguished SOTW Tech/Forum Contributor 2007
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    central MA
    Posts
    954
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i spend a good part of my week listening to recordings from that era on high end audio equipment, from that era, and they are an absolute pleasure to listen to. good high fi tube equpiment from the 50's and 60's will sound as good as anything you can buy today without going into the totally ridiculous price range.

    the recording availble form the guy in south america is unlistenable, and perhaps the worst sounding old recording remaster i have heard. i am not sure if he mastered it, and i was not trying to comment on rascher's playing (you really can't from this recording), just saying that if you do go the route of buying that from the guy down there you should not expect something that is listenable. the sound quality is worse than a lot of blues transfers i have heard from the 30's.

  20. #20
    Distinguished Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Tempe, AZ
    Posts
    566
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It's not just that the Rascher recording is old, but it was very bad to begin with. It was not an official recording...not professionally done in the first place. It was never recorded for release.

    Back to the reeds. It is true that harder reeds help with the altissimo. You may be able to squeek out notes just as high in softer reeds, but you lose potential tone quality. There has to be a compromise in the reeds you use. You need to be able to play low easily, but at the same time you need to be able to play the range needed for our standard rep with a tone that is beautiful, and not overly strident and bright. Switching to a slightly hard reed will help with this, though you may need to work harder on making your low notes as nice as they were before. It is not necessarily better to have a wonderful low register, and an out of proportioned, piercing altissimo register.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
VigLink badge