Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ? - Page 2

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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by funchaus View Post

    The used horns are cheaper and from well known brands. The new horns are less time tested. However, the old horns could need repair work done, and especially with the Vito's, it's hard to know whether is a good (Japanese made?) model or not.
    The Reverb listing with the distinctive continuous low register key guard is a -23. Isn't the other "made in Japan" also a Yamaha, but looks like a 200 or 275 platform? At anyrate, I've got/had Yamaha student horns, and they are everything everyone claims. But I like playing my older US beaters more.

    Since you are playing an 80 year old Buescher and enjoying it, I'd say you might look into adding "old horns" to your search. Just find a good, reputable tech. Tech's can do great things with a decent vintage specimen for not a lot of money. Considering what they can do, having access to a good tech is a relative bargain. The lure of older vintage horns, is discovering the many underrated horns out there, rescuing a nice find, and enjoying something from the hey dey. It also can be a cheaper way to own a superior horn. But, its not for everyone.
    Best, Jim

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    @funchaus
    I'm having a pretty tough time navigating the market place.
    If possible, I'd like to spend less that $1000 on a horn.



    As a suggestion and because it seems like you’re in no hurry. Learn a little bit about what to look for in a used saxophone. IE wear/damage. Spend some time stopping at some yard sales or at fleamarket. Don’t hesitate to ask at a yard sale if you don’t see one.
    Here is an example of a Conn 16M director a.k.a. “shooting star”....needs repad. And yeah it has a few signs of being used since 1958. But what would you expect for $35 at a yard sale. Now add $500 for a full re-pad and you end up with enough change to buy a decent YAS 23 alto. Or one hell of a Mouthpiece and ligature.
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the other horns you were looking at. Just throwing this at you because it is very doable. And you seem not to have any issues with vintage.
    Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig 🐷

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Currently listed on letgo in Southern California

    YAS-23 $185.
    https://app.letgo.com/k8Mk/xKHiBIvBrK


    YTS-23 $450
    https://app.letgo.com/k8Mk/3b4i19ZBrK
    Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig 🐷

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    So many helpful suggestions!

    So many that I started to think I should try out some horns for myself and see how they feel.

    First I tried out two new cannonballs, a Sceptyr and a T-5. I was surprised to find that I had a very tough time with the left hand pinky table. It sticks out quite a bit and is almost perpendicular to the front of the body. I have fairly small hands, and I could barely reach the Bb key, and had trouble transitioning between the B and C# keys. I was also surprised that I didn't really like the sound much! I'm sure that had more to do with my playing than the horn, but I much prefer the fuller midrange of my old true tone! These both sounded a bit hollow, or plasticky to me. Is this the typical pinky table setup for modern horns? Am I the only one who finds it harder to reach than the vintage style?

    Then I tried out some vintage american saxes, and I was immediately more comfortable with the left hand pinky keys. First I tried a later Conn 16m, and thought it was fairly comfortable, but didn't love the sound. It's possibly it was leaking, but it sounded bland and weak. Then I tried a 1960 Buescher s-40. It was by far the most comfortable and best sounding, but it had some damage to the bow and the C# felt very heavy, much heavier than my true tone. Finally I tried a 1926 Martin handcraft. It felt a lot like my true tone, with the super old school pinky table, and sounded pretty good, but I think it needed some work done. Several of the notes sounded thinner than the others.

    Overall, I'm really glad I tried out some different horns for myself. I learned that I'm not a huge fan of modern style pinky tables (unless the cannonball is just an exception?), and that I prefer a bigger, vintage sound. I spoke with JayePDX (thanks to jrutledg for the reccomendation!), and he has a 10m and a zephyr that I think would work well for me. Any thoughts on the difference between these two, especially the ergos? I definitely prefer the old style, side-facing, table style, but since my fingers are short, I'd prefer the one with the shorter stretch. Based on what I've read about tone, I'm leaning slightly toward the 10m. I'm also planning on trying out a Buescher 155 tomorrow, but it's a bit out of my price range

    BTW, this is the aristocrat I tried. I'd be more interested in it, but I haven't had great experiences with sam ash in the past, and worry I'd need to put in a lot of money to restore it, as opposed to something from George at 2ndEnding, who suggested two saxes that seem like a better value

    https://reverb.com/item/6957436-buescher-aristocrat-s40

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Both the 10M and Zephyr are great options! I have a '57 10M and, to be frank, it's got somewhat odd ergos (relative to other horns). Now, don't get me wrong, they aren't bad just different. I'm one of those dummies that jumps around on a few different horns so if I were to dedicate myself to the 10M it wouldn't be a big deal. IF you have the chance, you should lay your hands on a 10M just to get a feel.

    On the other hand (pun intended), I've really grown to like the ergonomics on post-war Kings from the Cleveland to the Zephyr and on up to the Super 20. They are just comfortable for me. I haven't played an early Z so I can't speak to those. Now, I have larger hands and people look for different things in ergonomics so take all this with a grain of salt.

    If it were me, I'd probably lean towards the King but would take either over the original options. Of course that's assuming the King and Conn are in good playing shape (and coming from George, they will be).

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    I'd also look at the Martin Comm I that NYMeyerLansky just posted in the marketplace...

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Too bad that 16M was not completely up to snuff. If it had the original pads with rivets yeah they will sound dead. Pads with plastic dome resonators really brighten them up. Lots of YouTube videos available. https://youtu.be/xMmI0XQzG38. Really cool that you’re out looking and playing like the cannonball. Keep doing that, you’ll find exactly what you like.
    I’ve only had brief conversation with George. If there’s anybody on the planet that would tell you straight out it would be him.
    Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig 🐷

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Had the chance to try out a couple more horns today.

    First was a 155 Aristocrat in amazing condition, but a bit out of my price range ($1600). I found it really comfortable with a gorgeous full clear sound

    Then I tried out a couple off brand (larry ross and sugal) taiwanese saxes. I didnt particularly care for either (felt pretty cheap tbh), but I did realize that if I hold the sax farther back (on my hip) and tilt the bell out to the left, modern style keywork is a lot easier to play.

    So now my choices are down to an early 60's Zephyr or 49 10m from jayepdx, that Aristocrat, or a Crescent (I think I could get used to the keywork).

    I'm leaning toward the 10m, but would love to hear any more opinions!

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by funchaus View Post
    Had the chance to try out a couple more horns today.

    I'm leaning toward the 10m, but would love to hear any more opinions!

    Quit leaning and fall for the 10m, You won’t be disappointed with a decent naked lady.
    ‘49 if I remember are without the rolled tone holes. But still a very desirable vin.
    16m has DNA from 10m according to Jaypdx I think.
    Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig 🐷

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by funchaus View Post
    Had the chance to try out a couple more horns today.

    First was a 155 Aristocrat in amazing condition, but a bit out of my price range ($1600). I found it really comfortable with a gorgeous full clear sound

    Then I tried out a couple off brand (larry ross and sugal) taiwanese saxes. I didnt particularly care for either (felt pretty cheap tbh), but I did realize that if I hold the sax farther back (on my hip) and tilt the bell out to the left, modern style keywork is a lot easier to play.

    So now my choices are down to an early 60's Zephyr or 49 10m from jayepdx, that Aristocrat, or a Crescent (I think I could get used to the keywork).

    I'm leaning toward the 10m, but would love to hear any more opinions!
    Hi
    I too would have you spend a few years on a Yamaha...but possibly try to get you to shoot for the YTS32 (52 in the USA) like this gorgeous purple logo :-

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-P...53.m1438.l2649

    I am also going to throw you a curveball...The Keilwerth EX90 1 Or 2. Not a easy find but none the less...both the 1 and the 2 are made in Germany and a great sounding horns. (The later 3 was not made in Germany )
    You would get much more of a vintage vibe out of the Keilwerth as it’s has a large bore ..the 1 and 2 are a secret gem. Well they were

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    This whole experience has been a ton of fun and very educational. It has also given me new appreciation for my old true tone! Every time I go out and try horns, I come back and play it and am amazed just how well the little guy sounds. The stack keys are even pretty comfortable!

    I'm very tempted to pick up the Big B. It comes from a well respected local shop (Carere Music in Atlanta), is set up well, and sounds amazing. Cosmetically, it has almost all of its original lacquer and very few scratches. There is on small ding on the bottom of the bow, does that matter much in terms of value or tone? They said the pads are original, and they seemed to be sealing well (I could play a very soft low Bb no problem), but is there an easy way to tell how much life they have left?

    It's $1600, which is a bit more than I wanted to spend, but I have the money (tax return!), and it seems like a decent deal on a big b in such good shape. I'd rather spend the money now and not think about gear for a while than buy something I haven't played and end up disappointed

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Shoot them $1400 in cash :~)

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    Wow, if those really are original pads any extended amount of playing is going to wear them fast. I’d be really surprised if they’re original, but hey, stranger things have happened.

    The small dent wouldn’t impact value enormously and you could always have it removed. At their price I would make sure it really does have all the original snap-in resonators and confirm original lacquer. THAT is where value takes a heavy hit. They play fine with modern pads and resos, but collectors really want snaps.

    If it was overhauled in the last 10 years I’d feel better about their asking price. If it’s really sitting on original pads, they need to come down quite a bit. I’ve been in a similar situation where I picked up a closet queen that plays really well, but after a relatively short period of playing the old pads just can’t keep up anymore.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    At that price I would definitely make sure the pads are current. My closet queen 16M was mint from original owner. It looked like it had been played twice then spent 57 years in the closet. The pads lasted me about three weeks and shred. The leather was so dried out it just fell apart. I paid $225 for that horn not $1600. The cork and key work was in such good shape it was a straight $500 repad with roo pads and neck cork. (The Mouthpiece had stuck on cork and spilt large chunk off). I ended up with a $725 pristine horn. IMHO you’re better off buying something and having it serviced yourself. Or acquiring it from a dealer who will stand behind their product for 3 months .
    I just acquired a 10M $450. Probably hasn’t been played since 1954 so it will need pads.
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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by funchaus View Post
    This whole experience has been a ton of fun and very educational. It has also given me new appreciation for my old true tone! Every time I go out and try horns, I come back and play it and am amazed just how well the little guy sounds. The stack keys are even pretty comfortable!

    I'm very tempted to pick up the Big B. It comes from a well respected local shop (Carere Music in Atlanta), is set up well, and sounds amazing. Cosmetically, it has almost all of its original lacquer and very few scratches. There is on small ding on the bottom of the bow, does that matter much in terms of value or tone? They said the pads are original, and they seemed to be sealing well (I could play a very soft low Bb no problem), but is there an easy way to tell how much life they have left?

    It's $1600, which is a bit more than I wanted to spend, but I have the money (tax return!), and it seems like a decent deal on a big b in such good shape. I'd rather spend the money now and not think about gear for a while than buy something I haven't played and end up disappointed
    If $1600 is more than you want to spend, how are you going to feel about the next Chunk o' Change invested in the repad/rebuild/overhaul?

    Check with your local tech to get a ballpark figure on the work BEFORE you commit to the horn. Fifty year old pads are not going to last long if you play the thing. Original pads may indicate low wear on the mechanism, but they will need to be replaced really soon. Original lacquer is desirable to collectors, but you can often find a good horn in decent fettle for a lot less.

    See if the shop will charge to include a repad in the sale, then determine your course.
    Go for The Tone,

    g



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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    I spoke to the tech at the shop and he confirmed that the Buescher basically sat in a case its whole life, and that the pads are on their last breath. He said it would be about 700 to get it in top shape, and that the current owner (it's a consignment) is unlikely to come down much. Thanks to everybody who advised me to do a bit more investigating.

    This thread, and actually trying out some horns has taught me a few things

    1) I'm not quite ready to buy yet
    2) My c-melody is a lovable weirdo, tons of fun to play, and not holding me back at all for now
    3) I need to start taking lessons, because I think a good teacher could help with a lot of these questions (on top of helping me progress as a player!)
    4) When I am ready to buy, there are tons of great options out there for a better price than I had thought at first

    Thanks again to everybody who offered opinions, I'll be sure to post an update when I make a purchase (within a month or two probably)

    Happy Saxin!
    Dylan

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by funchaus View Post
    First I tried out two new cannonballs, a Sceptyr and a T-5. I was surprised to find that I had a very tough time with the left hand pinky table. It sticks out quite a bit and is almost perpendicular to the front of the body. I have fairly small hands, and I could barely reach the Bb key, and had trouble transitioning between the B and C# keys. I was also surprised that I didn't really like the sound much! I'm sure that had more to do with my playing than the horn, but I much prefer the fuller midrange of my old true tone! These both sounded a bit hollow, or plasticky to me. Is this the typical pinky table setup for modern horns? Am I the only one who finds it harder to reach than the vintage style?
    Quote Originally Posted by funchaus View Post
    Then I tried out a couple off brand (larry ross and sugal) taiwanese saxes. I didnt particularly care for either (felt pretty cheap tbh), but I did realize that if I hold the sax farther back (on my hip) and tilt the bell out to the left, modern style keywork is a lot easier to play.
    I think that further experience has enabled you to partially answer your own question. In general, however, the arrangement of the left-hand table keys on almost all modern saxophones is essentially the same, i.e., the placement of the G#, B, and C# keys, and the use of a "rocking" Bb mechanism. Some minor differences do exist; e.g., Yanagisawa (and perhaps a couple of other makes that have copied Yany) has an extra connector between the C# and B that facilitates sliding between these keys. But the exact position and size of the table can still vary from brand to brand. Sometimes the table can stick out more horizontally, like a little wing on the body tube. Sometimes it's "flatter," i.e., it runs more along the side of the tube. And some tables are bigger than others. The Selmer Mark VII tenor was notorious for having a very large left-hand table that some players found difficult to use. It was the size, not the style of the design, that caused the problem.

    If you're used to an old-fashioned Bb that feels similar to the G# key, the modern rocking Bb can feel strange at first. Most people learn to appreciate it in the end, though.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Good luck, Dylan! And for what it's worth, I would keep George's contact info on hand, he's one of the good ones!

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Quote Originally Posted by funchaus View Post
    I spoke to the tech at the shop and he confirmed that the Buescher basically sat in a case its whole life, and that the pads are on their last breath. He said it would be about 700 to get it in top shape, and that the current owner (it's a consignment) is unlikely to come down much. Thanks to everybody who advised me to do a bit more investigating.
    I am relieved to hear that you asked the tough questions of the shop and got the honest answers. Bonus points to you - and the shop.

    Thanks for sharing the followup.


    G'luck with your quest.
    Go for The Tone,

    g



    "When you are doing well, don't forget to do good." - Sichan Siv.

    As a Veteran for Peace, I am already against the next war.

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    Default Re: Crescent/Kessler Tenor vs used Yamaha/Vito vs ?

    Dylan, I can guarantee you two months from now you will have become a reasonably educated saxophone buyer. Put the money in the bank and keep learning. When you find the right horn and the price is right you will make a good purchase with confidence. Meanwhile as a suggestion dig through the massive amount of information to be had here on SOTW. The “beginners form” and saxophone “makes and models” are an excellent place to start your dig.

    Best of luck !
    Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig 🐷

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