Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G? - Page 12

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  1. #221
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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon (NZ) View Post
    If the above posts have not burst your bubble then I think you are just refusing to have it burst.

    A valve of the type needed for a sax, i.e. a large diameter and quite significant venting needs considerable mechanical infrastructure. You mention posts, brass rods etc. You will still need posts for this infrastructure, on which to mount rigid key cups and the agent that moves them.
    You will need solenoids or servos to operate the key cups/valves. Servos would need a gear system to slow down the movement, and that is probably too inherently noisy if they are to operate fast enough. Both servos and solenoids that can operate fast enough and close pads/valves firmly enough will need significant coils of wire. A solenoid needs a solid, moving, metal core. Those things are heavy. There will be bearings to wear out; more than a sax currently has. Not to mention batteries, with probably a higher demand than that in your mobile, so significantly heavier than your mobile battery. Batteries will fade in a few years and need replacing.

    The notion just adds a whole heap of other problems.
    All very true Gordon and basically the better approach would be a proven technology that can be adapted to a standard saxophone. Piezo pickups for guitar and other string instruments work very well and if such a system could be worked out it would be ideal if you're looking to exploit electronics this might be something to consider.

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by saxoclese View Post
    I haven't bothered to read through this entire thread, but the answer to the original question is that a high G key isn't needed. It is true that the altissimo G can be difficult at first especially on tenor, but that can be remedied by adjusting the front F key to open the F palm key pad just 2 - 3 mm. With this adjustment the high G speaks clearly. The downside of this of course is that it makes the front F too stuffy to use and the front E impossible. The ideal would be a front F that opened a small distance for altissimo G and vented it's full opening for front F and front E. It just so happens that this mechanism has been invented and patented. Front F, altissimo G key for saxophone
    Ok, what's the point of that? There is already a key that do the venting very well for the high G, it is high the F# key. It's in the rousseau book, you can play easily a high G with the F# key venting and the B key. No need for a G key, there is already one (the f# key).

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    As I noted in another thread, I was pleased to find that high G pops right out on my new Buescher True Tone - play it like the 1 and 1 Bb and add the high F palm key, and there it is. Easier than on any of my other saxophones. Another data point in support of the theory that old Bueschers are really easy to get overtones on.

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sax Bum View Post
    What I was talking about, and I think Alan was too, was the possibility of adding a high G without a traditional mechanism but something that opens and closes a tone hole electronically, rather than physically.
    In other words, a solution in search of a problem.

    Not everything in the world requires improvement by the application of electronics.

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
    In other words, a solution in search of a problem.

    Not everything in the world requires improvement by the application of electronics.
    Not at all. People were saying there's too much junk on the horn already to add another mechanism. So it's a solution for an existing problem, at least in the minds of some of the people in this thread.

  7. #226
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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geolm View Post
    Ok, what's the point of that? There is already a key that do the venting very well for the high G, it is high the F# key. It's in the rousseau book, you can play easily a high G with the F# key venting and the B key. No need for a G key, there is already one (the f# key).
    What about saxes that don't have a high f# key?

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    I reckon save the electronics for tightening a crescent spanner.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon (NZ) View Post
    I reckon save the electronics for tightening a crescent spanner.
    Thing about that is, you need both the left handed and the right handed one. At least, I have always found that changing my muffler bearings requires both the left and the right.

    Simpler jobs, like opening the can of striped paint, I am usually able to handle with my piezoelectric actuated screwdriver.

    For more complicated jobs, like drilling a hole with a 90 degree bend in it, I usually have to use not one but two flux capacitors. Although I have been told that combining a turbo-encabulator with a couple of darkness-emitting-arsenide-diodes is an alternate method.

    By the way, I am trying to install a new write-only-memory in my computer. Can you help me retrieve the data that I store in it?

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Thanks turf3. Best laugh I've had for weeks!

    Your hole with a right angle reminded me of this old classic: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/54/9c/1d/5...-bolt-menu.jpg
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  11. #230
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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sax Bum View Post
    Apologies for the redundancy, but I have to respectfully disagree on that. I have already explained why multiple times in this thread but basically, it's hypocritical to use horns that have High E and F keys, which became standard in the early 20th century, but then oppose high F# or G keys because it's supposedly better to learn them the hard way like they did. I think they have a heavy bias toward their own place in saxophone history. A high G is no more a cop out than opposing high G is reactionary defensiveness.
    "Hypocritical?" I'm afraid I have no clue what you're talking about. Are you referring to the E and F palm keys? Either way, I grew up in the 1990's and have only EVER played modern horns with keywork up to high F. I couldn't care less what the original saxophone design was.

    If you're referring to the tone exercises necessary to get altissimo notes out, I'm afraid we're on two different wavelengths. As Chris Creviston taught, you're supposed to voice EVERY note on the saxophone, including the "normal" range (low Bb-high F). I believe that advanced tone exercises should be taught as early as possible, but as it stands, very few teachers take that approach. Most of the standard repertoire only require the player to play notes up to high F, especially at a grade school level. Therefore, I don't see your point. It would be entirely impractical to "outlaw" high E and F keys for the sake of "not being a hypocrite."
    Jazz theory as it exists today didn't exist when the greats were revolutionizing jazz. Just some food for thought.

  12. #231
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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    I think what Sax Bum meant was that the E and F palm keys are not really necessary to play those notes since one can play them using the octave, Fork F and 1,2,3 and 1,2 and 1,2, side Bb. In fact when I use those fingerings much more than the dedicated palm keys for those notes because it is much faster and allows me to then add high G or play D and Eb no problem either. So the palm keys I only really use are D and Eb and play the rest of those notes on up with the Front F.

    With that idea in mind, I think Sax Bum was saying that adding the high F# and G keys is no more illogical than having added the E and F palm keys. Am I right or am I right?
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
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    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

  13. #232
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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    The front F and front E wouldn't exist without the palm F key, because the venting of it via the front F key is how the mechanism works. The E palm key is necessary because without it (And without the palm F key as well, because there has never been a saxophone with an F palm key but without an E palm key), the only way to play a high E would be via the overtone of middle A, which has a relatively unstable overtone series when compared to low Bb, which by extension would be the correct way to play high F without the keywork.

    If it were a hundred years ago, and the prospect of adding keywork from high E to G all at once was a thing, I'd agree that only including up to high F would be illogical. But that's not the case. Here we all are, one hundred years later, and palm E and F keys have been standard that entire time on just about every saxophone in existence, unlike high F# and G keys. So no, it isn't even remotely illogical to approve of palm keys and not F# and G keys.
    Jazz theory as it exists today didn't exist when the greats were revolutionizing jazz. Just some food for thought.

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Thanks for correcting me on that.
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
    'We're going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn.
    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by craigmultireedguy View Post
    The front F and front E wouldn't exist without the palm F key, because the venting of it via the front F key is how the mechanism works. The E palm key is necessary because without it (And without the palm F key as well, because there has never been a saxophone with an F palm key but without an E palm key), the only way to play a high E would be via the overtone of middle A, which has a relatively unstable overtone series when compared to low Bb, which by extension would be the correct way to play high F without the keywork.

    If it were a hundred years ago, and the prospect of adding keywork from high E to G all at once was a thing, I'd agree that only including up to high F would be illogical. But that's not the case. Here we all are, one hundred years later, and palm E and F keys have been standard that entire time on just about every saxophone in existence, unlike high F# and G keys. So no, it isn't even remotely illogical to approve of palm keys and not F# and G keys.
    More than hundred years in fact: closer to 170. The old sopranos and baritones were only keyed up to Eb, but altos and tenors were keyed up to F. You can already see a high F on an 1848 alto.

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by craigmultireedguy View Post
    ... So no, it isn't even remotely illogical to approve of palm keys and not F# and G keys.
    Except that it is more than remotely possible that the more you muck up the clean cone bore of the neck area you may stuff other acoustic phenomena affecting the way a sax generally plays.throughout the sax.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  17. #236
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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon (NZ) View Post
    Except that it is more than remotely possible that the more you muck up the clean cone bore of the neck area you may stuff other acoustic phenomena affecting the way a sax generally plays.throughout the sax.
    And? The last time I checked, players in every genre have been making it work wonders this entire time, regardless of how "mucked up" the bore is.

    If you'd like to propose a brand new mechanical solution to the problem, an alternative to the palm keys-front F mechanism, please do. Until then, your argument holds no water.
    Jazz theory as it exists today didn't exist when the greats were revolutionizing jazz. Just some food for thought.

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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Proposed:

    Instead of adding entire tone holes for high F# and G, add one or two register vents located specifically to facilitate overblowing those notes. For example, one could locate a vent perfectly located to overblow a high F# from - say - a high C#, or B.

    Register vents make only a small disturbance in the bore.

    Also, for many of us the tonal quality of a longer tube overblown is better and the pitch of the note is more controllable than that of a very very short tube note. Personally I find the front high E, for example, to be a better note all round than the palm key E.

    If players are willing to put up with additional side keys to open full sized tone holes for high F# and high G they ought to be willing to put up with key touches for such register vents.

  19. #238
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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
    Also, for many of us the tonal quality of a longer tube overblown is better and the pitch of the note is more controllable than that of a very very short tube note. Personally I find the front high E, for example, to be a better note all round than the palm key E.
    I have to disagree with you on that point, but only based on anecdotal evidence. My personal alto is an amazing horn, but the palm E sounds fuller, responds better and plays more in tune than the front E. To be fair, I think that is only a quirk of this particular horn. I doubt that a significant number of horns have this issue, but then again, the saxophone is generally a quirky instrument.
    Jazz theory as it exists today didn't exist when the greats were revolutionizing jazz. Just some food for thought.

  20. #239
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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    Quote Originally Posted by craigmultireedguy View Post
    And? The last time I checked, players in every genre have been making it work wonders this entire time, regardless of how "mucked up" the bore is...
    Well actually, if you search this site, you will find that comes players have blocked up their High F#, right down to the bore, in order to stop their sax being "mucked up".

    Also, the higher up the sax the "mucking up" is, the more serious the effects. Try putting a blob of something inside your mouthpiece or just inside the narrow end of the neck. That certainly affects the way a sax plays. A conical bore is ideally a conical bore, not a corrugated bore.
    You seem to be saying that a high G has been well tried and tested. It has not! jUst because high D or F have little effect on how the other notres of the sax play, does not mean that G would not.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  21. #240
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    Default Re: Why don't more professional altos and tenors have a high G?

    The pros I know don't like saxes with high F# keys. They can play a high F# without an extra key, and the G, G#, A, A# etc... High F# keys are unnecessary on altos and tenors.

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