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Fred Lebayle Problem - help?

54K views 201 replies 58 participants last post by  armada1905 
#1 ·
After a quick search, it looks like this is a fairly common problem w Fred Lebayle -

I purchased a mouthpiece off his site on Nov 14th 2016 for $470.00.

Now, over a year later, I've not received an email, message or a mouthpiece after many many attempts to contact him.

Jon Ellis and Walter Smith both reached out on my behalf with no response.

Anyone have any advice for me? I'd like my money back of course...

Thanks for your time and help.

Matt Otto
 
#105 ·
Huh. I sent him an email yesterday to see if he could identify a mouthpiece that I bought second hand, and he answered me right away.

I was unaware of this thread, but have heard the rumors of course. That's two of his mouthpieces I have, one bought new from Brian Landrus and the other out of the classified. Both are excellent, and I did measure them-the facings are perfect.

So, this is a big mystery. I have an idea about what his major problem is, but could be wrong. Surely Brian knows the story on Fred LeBayle, but he doesn't seem to be inclined to comment.
 
#108 ·
Can we set up a poll to see how many people have been ripped off by Mr. Lebayle. I've only had one dealing with him which was years ago. I bought a wood mouthpiece of his from somewhere and it was amazing. I was in love. Two weeks later it wasn't working at all for me. Reeds weren't sealing and was squeaking. It must have warped. I emailed him and he responded immediately. He asked me to send the mouthpiece to him. He refaced it and sent it back with an extra mouthpiece in the package for my trouble. I was blown away by his service in that situation. That was maybe 10-12 years ago I think.
 
#120 ·
A mouthpiece can all of a sudden warp ? Without exposing it to heat or anything extreme ? I would find that hard to believe if it wasn't for the fact it happened to me too once with a hr piece. At the time I thought it was me or the reeds... How can this happen ? Once a piece is finished it's all set and will not change anymore.. Or so I thought. Am I missing some info on the production process of hr pieces ?
 
#109 ·
#115 ·
I have an idea.

In the UK there is a TV BBC program, Rogue Traders, they expose traders that are doing all sorts of things that are separating people from their money without delivery quality or goods or perpetrated in a fraudulent way.

Is there such a program in the USA?

How about having them order a few mouthpieces from Lebayle and then showing up with cameras?

Is this an idea?

 
#122 ·
Wood is a terrible material for mpcs. Your mouth is wet...temp changes..all that reeks havoc on wood which is constantly in motion. Hard rubber can warp. Tight ligs or ligs left on...of course temp extremes. Some just decide to change a bit. The operative word is rubber. Typically wood pieces warp. Most the time HR does not...but it can.
 
#123 ·
Suggest filing a consumer complaint with the state Attorney General's office in the state where Lebayle does business. If enough people do this the state may take action against him and could potentially shut him down. The key would be having enough people complain that the AG takes an interest in doing something about it. The AG won't just handle an individual's claim against a business.
 
#126 ·
In a prior life I prosecuted consumer fraud cases in private practice. No small claims court (attorneys not allowed), but larger claims, including class actions. I haven't read all the posts, but from the ones I have read, this is a case that I would not take. An individual might have a claim for $500. Most state courts allow for the recovery of filing fees, etc., and even attorney fees to the successful party. So let's say plaintiff incurs $500 in fees and the attorney has put in 20 hours at $100 per hour (depositions, discovery, pretrial motions). Courts often say that the attorney has overworked the case, as in this situation, it's kind of an open and shut case. Prove that the plaintiff paid, prove that the plaintiff got nothing. Simple. So the court says $1,000 is a reasonable recovery for attorney fees. So now the plaintiff recovers an award of $500 (cost of mouthpiece) $500 in court costs, and $1,000 for attorney fees. And the plaintiff is responsible to the attorney another $1,000 (what the court awards and what the attorney bills are two different things). The plaintiff ends up with nothing for his time.

But wait, there's more. An award doesn't get the plaintiff any money. An award against a deadbeat only gets you the ability to try to collect on the award. Garnish his bank account. Guess what? He doesn't have one. Wages? Nope. Hire an attorney to foreclose on his home? My experience is that a plaintiff who says "I don't care how much it costs, it's a matter of principal" will soon learn that it's a matter of costs and begin to complain to the attorney for not being talked out of the entire adventure.

You could go to the local attorney general, but they will only have complaints in their state. And don't expect any action. I used to visit the AG's office with a production request to view files on a particular business. On one occasion, they brought the complaints out in three banker's boxes on a hand truck. Probably 500 complaints over the years. The Assistant AG explained that the claims were small, not uniform, and the business had many satisfied customers who would suffer if the business was shut down (it was a membership type of business). So the AG generally has bigger fish to fry than woodwind mouthpiece business.

You could round up others from other jurisdictions for a class action, but court's like to see about 30 claimants with identical claims. The fact that some clients are happy, some jobs are arguably just really late, and some claims are from out-of-state or even out of the country is going to be a hard sell. And of course, once you get your class award of $15,000, you need to collect it somehow because you will owe your attorney more than that.

By all means, file a complaint with the AG and the BBB and anybody else you can think of. But the idea of wearing the white hat only sounds good until you find out how expensive a white hat can be. If you happen to be in the same jurisdiction as the deadbeat, you could go to small claims and get a judgement. You could then pursue collection (which will likely require an attorney). Better yet might be to post pictures of the judgment all over the internet. And be sure to register the judgment against the defendant's real property (if any). That way, all you have to do is outlive him or her (and maybe the heirs) and the judgment will be paid off when the property sells in order to clear title.

Mark
 
#128 ·
In a prior life I prosecuted consumer fraud cases in private practice. No small claims court (attorneys not allowed), but larger claims, including class actions.
But I think the suggestion here is to go with a small claims court. Which is what this is; a small claim. However, that may be a problem if the claimant (is that the right term?) lives clear across the country from the person being sued. I don't know much about the law but everything you said sounds true to me if the small claims court is not an option for whatever reason.

It would appear that a lot of petty (and not so petty) fraudsters get away with it. Best thing to do is be very careful about who you deal with. So from here on out, don't buy anything from Fred Lebayle.
 
#127 ·
so he is gonna get away with it?

In the UK and AU this would be dealt by the trading standards authority they have enough powers to enforce the law powerfully. No need for a judge. The police should have some authority in the US too but that doesn't seem to be the case. Ideal for small frauds if that is not the case.

Every country in the end has the system that it deserves if citizens like it.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-more-help/report-to-trading-standards/
 
#131 ·
you mean you want an international vendor who makes very good money on selling Lebayle mouthpieces and has no problem to get his supply, to concern himself over insuring that Lebayle, bypassing him or any other vendor, would be giving customers, whom obviously could have bought from him and not directly from Lebayle, a good and fair deal?

If nothing else they would encourage Lebayle to NOT deliver Lebayle because THEY do!

Best advertising in the world.

You can't get it direct because he won't deliver, but we do!

Maybe you have a different experience but in my experience no vendor would do that.
 
#133 ·
Cheers Diskman :),

Maybe the problem is exactly that. Suffering under the pressure. Yet, no one should ever take money for things they know they can’t provide and hiring people even if extremely anal about the work that you do is indispensable at some stage or growing is impossible.
 
#137 ·
Any crime has to be fought within the legal system otherwise the we undermine the same system which we seek to protect ( and which should protect us).

Clearly the system in the US offers less protections than the British (or Australian) or even Dutch system offer which is a pity because the lack of protection encourages actions which could be conducive to problems.

I still think that all the people who have suffered damages should pool up and at the very least make a police complaint.

The more they are the more this will catch the eye of some agency.

I have noticed that few people ever follow the links I care to give but these are really important.

FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/#crnt&panel1-1

"...
How We Handle Your Info
The FTC cannot resolve individual complaints, but we can provide information about what next steps to take.

How much information you give us is up to you. We share your report with local, state, federal, and foreign law enforcement partners. Your report might be used to investigate cases or in a legal proceeding. If we need to know more about your report, it helps us to have your contact information. Please read our Privacy Policy to learn how we protect your personal information, and when we share it outside the FTC. "
 
#139 ·
As often said no good deed goes ever unpunished. That’s what you get for trying to be helpful and constructive.

Unless one likes it and condone what’s going on any US citizen can do it even better than I can from the Netherlands.

Get in touch with the federal trade commission, if you are an US citizen that is.
 
#142 ·
Bureau of Consumer Frauds & Protection

The Bureau of Consumer Frauds and Protection, part of the Economic Justice Division, prosecutes businesses and individuals engaged in fraudulent, misleading, deceptive or illegal trade practices.

In addition to litigating, the Bureau mediates thousands of complaints each year from individual consumers.

A large percentage of these complaints are resolved satisfactorily through the mediation process. As part of its mission, the Bureau provides information to consumers and seeks to ensure a fair and vigorous market place. The Bureau also drafts legislation and conducts studies and writes reports on emerging consumer problems and issues.

Consumer Helpline: 1-800-771-7755

https://ag.ny.gov/bureau/consumer-frauds-bureau

New York Consumer Fraud branch of the Atty Gen'l office

Have not read the whole thread ... has this connection been posted yet?

A bunch of these calls and complaints in a clump might wake things up.

Written notice and demand to the company in writing, stating that a consumer fraud complain will be filed might get action also.

FAQ there also says

"Anyone who believes he/she has been charged for an item that was neither authorized nor received in a reasonable amount of time should report this in writing to the applicable credit card company within 60 days. In most circumstances, the consumer will not be legally responsible for such charges."
 
#143 ·
I suppose this is precisely what I was attempting to say myself.

Doing nothing will achieve nothing.

Personal direct action will at best result in one person getting his money.

Prevent any further bad experiences refraining from buying ( but that, we have seen is not working because the earliest complaints are several years old) would simply create no more cases but I am certain that there will be those who will fall into this pitfall again.,

So the only possible strategy is alerting the authorities.

They are the only ones with the powers to enforce the law.
 
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