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Fred Lebayle Problem - help?

54K views 201 replies 58 participants last post by  armada1905 
#1 ·
After a quick search, it looks like this is a fairly common problem w Fred Lebayle -

I purchased a mouthpiece off his site on Nov 14th 2016 for $470.00.

Now, over a year later, I've not received an email, message or a mouthpiece after many many attempts to contact him.

Jon Ellis and Walter Smith both reached out on my behalf with no response.

Anyone have any advice for me? I'd like my money back of course...

Thanks for your time and help.

Matt Otto
 
#8 ·
Matt and Toot Sweet—-
I am really sorry to hear of this. Unfortunately, so many reports of Fred making a living ripping off people, and I heard he is extremely sick at this point and it is not looking good there—-so there is really no good news at the end of the rainbow for everyone looking to get their money back. It’s a shame business has been handled this way.
I hate hearing about these things. Guardala-Esque!!!

Brian and I are very good friends and I just spoke with him last week. He is not dealing with Fred either anymore, because of all this stuff. He tried to make things better by helping him out there and trying to get pieces to the players who ordered them, but there seems to be no end to this robbery.
 
#20 ·
Brian [Landrus] and I are very good friends and I just spoke with him last week. He is not dealing with Fred either anymore, because of all this stuff. He tried to make things better by helping him out there and trying to get pieces to the players who ordered them, but there seems to be no end to this robbery.
Although Fred is one of the best mouthpiece makers in the business, I'd heard bad reports about the unreliability of doing business directly with him, arising from his health problems (he's "on the spectrum"). So I didn't buy directly from him, but bought one of his metal bari pieces (new) via Brian Landrus. The sale couldn't have gone more smoothly: I can't sing Brian's praises strongly enough. This was two years ago (September 2015); I'm using the mouthpiece to this day and it's a great one.

I'm only sorry I won't be able to get the tenor version I've been promising myself for some time, but if Brian "is not dealing with Fred… anymore," there's an end to it, because there's no way I'd deal directly with Fred through the mail !
 
#9 ·
Did you pay by credit card? If so, wouldn't normal protections allow you to reverse the charge for an item you did not receive? Though perhaps waiting a year to challenge the payment could present a problem.

I just toggled partway through an order on his website, and it looks like his payments are processed through Squarespace. Perhaps someone with a little initiative could track down people who've been ripped off to provide Squarespace with enough evidence to convince them to stop being a party to fraud.
 
#10 ·
I'm sorry, but there's a special place in hell for people who rip others off. He might be in not so good health now and it would be great if he got better and did the RIGHT thing, but judging from his track record, that part of the equation isn't likely. Sorry, it just makes me furious when I read/hear about people like that.
 
#11 ·
I fully agree!

A lot of us out here try our best for the community. I have surprise sales all the time , I give away mouthpieces for free all the time too needy players who can’t afford stuff, donations, student horns,etc.

There are more good guys out there, than bad.
Fred has quite the reputation for doing this and I don’t know why anybody orders any pieces from him because this stuff is all over the Internet.
 
#12 ·
There's no denying that the OP has a legitimate grievance; failure to deliver on a pre-paid commission is a poor business practice, & the customer is entitled to expect to be made whole.

However, I can't simply regard Mr. Lebayle as a "bad guy." I believe that his intent all along has been to provide quality mouthpieces. For the small entrepreneur, success in the marketplace can lead to downfall as demand outstrips ability to supply. And certain types of health issues can diminish one's capacity to maintain productivity -- or even cope with ordinary tasks & obligations -- under conditions of stress.

This situation is unfortunate all around. I don't feel a need to point the finger.
 
#13 ·
However, I can't simply regard Mr. Lebayle as a "bad guy."
Why not? He has repeatedly taken money and not shipped any product or even replied to correspondence. Seems like bad behavior to me!
If he cannot keep up with demand, he should take the purchase option off of his webpage and just supply contact information. Other mouthpiece makers run into supply/demand issues and suspend taking new orders until they catch up.
 
#18 ·
I think it's time to make an appropriate section on the forum... to report those kind of scams.
It's plenty of post about Lebayle behaviour... but still looks like nobody has read them before they got screwed (after having ordered mouthpieces from him) probably because these post are not so "visible" here.


Honestly... since Lebayle does the finishing (on a mouthpiece) without feelers/gages (all by eye), I'd hardly buy a Lebayle mouthpiece if I can't try it before buy it.
Most of top players who still use a Lebayle mouthpiece had their pieces bought at his place, after a long playtesting/final adjusting process.
 
#35 ·
well, to be really honest about this there is a HUGE difference between what is happening here and armed robbery!

I am not excusing anyone but Mr. Lebayle is not robbing people at gunpoint in a dark alley.

Any court would make the distinction.

I am also quite sure that this that has happened ( repeatedly) would be classed a misdemeanor and not a felony in most court of laws ( we have lawyers among us, ask Grumps).
 
#40 ·
The distinction I made was made mainly with the purpose to make a distinction about wat is perpetrated and it being equated to armed robbery.

It isn't the same thing and by a long stretch isn't.

Again I am not condoning anything ( read my previous condemnation also in other threads) but if a crime is punished with less than one year imprisonment it is considered a legal misdemeanor and not a felony.

Bad as this is, I am convinced that unless there is a lot of money involved ( as in the Guardala case which was not about not delivered mouthpieces ) this wouldn't even be brought in front of a higher court ( so not discussed with a jury but just in front of a judge) and would be at most a misdemeanor of third level. Which is still a very serious offense.

In fact I am surprise that some of the many victims havent been to the police and gained some action. In this case why didn't they proceed?

Or maybe they did and the police has decided that there was too little to make a court case?

if you are interested in the legal distinction.

https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=30998
 
#41 ·
The distinction I made was made mainly with the purpose to make a distinction about wat is perpetrated and it being equated to armed robbery.
Ok, I'll accept that in trying to make a point, I stretched it a bit. But what I would say for certain is that fraud is exactly the same thing as robbery (or theft). Armed robbery includes the threat of physical violence, which is an additional crime. So yeah milandro, you're right on the point. But I do consider fraud to be stealing/robbery. It's the same thing. And it just seems like society is becoming inured to all sorts of fraudulent activity, including the blatant disregard for facts and the blurring of the line between fact and fiction. It bothers me.
 
#44 ·
milandro, I agree that the 'good old days' were no better, and likely worse in many respects.

I'm not advocating any specific punishment and I realize there are all sorts of laws and various degrees of criminal activity ranging across the spectrum.

I'm reacting to the idea that this guy who has stolen nearly $500 from Matt, and evidently from many others, is somehow just having a bad time of it and not really a criminal. My feeling on it is pretty simple and straight forward: Those who commit fraud are criminals. And they range all the way up the spectrum from minor petty 'street' con artists to the highest levels of our financial and political systems.
 
#51 ·
My feeling on it is pretty simple and straight forward: Those who commit fraud are scum. And they range all the way up the spectrum from minor petty 'street' con artists to the highest levels of our financial and political systems.
And who could disagree with that statement? I don't.

But the appropriate way to deal with these things is through the trading standards authorities, the police and judiciary system. These things are in place to prevent citizens taking these matters in their own hands.

The fact that this person seems to experience " problems " and doesn't seem to be able to conduct himself with customers in a normal, professional, way (while he appears to have no problem to provide many shops with his work) is no excuse.

He knows, by now, that he cannot fulfill his obligations, continuing to take orders, and more importantly, money, for deliveries that he cannot make his unacceptable. Whether criminal or just a mismanagement matter is a matter for the police to ascertain.
In other words if he cannot conduct his business in a professional way he should have a curator doing this for him. My wife works with lots of people with a number of mental challenges , some have businesses and have a curator who does thing for them, exactly to prevent things going this way.

Complaining to the right people is essential.

There are, I believe agencies (I hope this is not a private company, the web site says gov. which I assume is the government of the US)

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/#crnt&panel1-1

If this person has problems to deal with his inability to meet a deadline or to provide a product he should pay someone to supervise him, making a " mistake" is one thing, keep doing it for years and years is an entirely different matter. If metal problems would be a legal excuse then we would have hordes of people with these problems leading companies which take money and don't deliver the goods.

I think it is good to shame him publicly, but I will hold off the tar and feathers because this is not the way to deal with these things in this day and age.

I wonder if it is possible for creditors to team up ( you need to establish a registry) to ask for a court order toward securing the goods by repossessing them. This should temporarily close any activities at the workshop and seal the premises with all its goods inside.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0221-billed-merchandise-you-never-received#rights

Your Rights When Shopping by Phone, Mail or Online
The Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule applies to most goods you order by mail, phone, fax, or online. It requires sellers to have a reasonable basis for claiming they can ship an order within a certain time and details what sellers should do if there is a delay.

Ship Dates
By law, a seller should ship your order within the time stated in its ads or over the phone. If the seller doesn't promise a time, you can expect it to ship your order within 30 days.
The shipment "clock" begins when the seller receives a "properly completed order." That includes your name, address and payment (check, money order or authorization to charge an existing credit account - whether the account is charged at that time or not).
If the seller doesn't promise a shipping time, and you are applying for credit to pay for your purchase, the seller has an additional 20 days (50 days total) to establish the account and ship the merchandise.
Delays
If the seller is unable to ship within the promised time, it must notify you, give a revised shipping date and give you the chance to cancel for a full refund or accept the new shipping date. The seller also must give you some way to exercise the cancellation option for free - for example, by supplying a prepaid reply card or staffing a toll-free telephone number.

If you don't respond - and the delay is 30 days or less - it's assumed that you accept the delay and are willing to wait for the merchandise.
If you don't respond - and the delay is more than 30 days - the order must be canceled by the 30th day of the delay period and a full refund issued promptly.
If the seller can't meet the revised shipping date, it must notify you again by mail, email or telephone and give you a new shipping date or cancel your order and give you a refund.

The order should be canceled and a refund issued promptly unless you indicate by the revised shipping date that you are willing to wait.
If you don't respond to the second notice, the seller should assume that you are not willing to wait issue a full refund promptly.
Refunds
If you pay by cash, check or money order, or a non-seller credit card, the seller must give you a refund within seven working days after the order is canceled.

If you pay by credit card where the seller is the card issuer, the seller must credit your account within one billing cycle after the order is canceled.
 
#48 ·
There exist disorders which impede people's ability to communicate or act appropriately in stressful situations, especially when they themselves have caused the stress in the first place. They may be paralyzed into inaction by shame, guilt, fear; and through inaction, they make the situation worse.

Whether that's what is going on with the person under discussion, I don't know. I have known folks with such disorders, and I have compassion for them. Many are extremely intelligent & skilled, yet have difficulty maintaining a career.

Yes, their failure to do the right thing at the right time can cause unreasonable burdens for others. This is not necessarily evidence of criminal intent to defraud.

By all means, any customer who has been left on the hook should pursue legal remedies. Tar & feathers, however, may not be necessary

Those of us able to fulfill our contracts & obligations flawlessly are fortunate, & perhaps can understand that what is easy for us may be a significant challenge for others.
 
#53 ·
I understand that this is very close to you Toughtenor, yes, compassion is a good thing but the best way to help a person in need is to help this person face his responsibilities if he has caused damages to someone.

In this case of mental illness (not unlike if someone is otherwise incapacitated as for example people on drugs) the best form of compassion is to bring this in front of a judge who will stop the malpractice and compel the person in need of help to get help once and forever.

Compassion with no action is pointless, won't change anything and won't help anyone.

If you would have lost big, like some in other threads told us, it will be a bit more difficult to show compassion for the person whom has taken your money and not delivered for one or more years the goods paid.

There is a medium ground between compassion and revenge ( both of which I don't agree with) and that is called justice.

This was a year ago, where are we now? The same place

I haven't wanted to say anything, but now I feel I need to. Fred has some serious mental health problems. I am not trying to make excuses for him, but this is true. All of the people close to him know this. I truly believe he's a genius and many people I know agree. He makes some of the best mouthpieces in the world, and has more well known players on his pieces than anyone else in the industry. He's dealing with a lot. Fred is trying to get some help and I really hope he does.
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

He needs a person which will take care for him of his business. Again my wife works with many people with many forms of mental problems and disabilities, some of them are very functional some aren't , those whom aren't are subject to a person whom takes care of their legal and economic interests. There are countless of other decisions that Fred Lebayle has to take in his life all of which depend on how competent he is to face life.

He probably needs a legal guardian.

He is aware that he has a problem (at least that's what his friends say) but has consistently failed to take initiatives (that we know of) to solve his problems for at least one year. How much more does have to go wrong before he realizes that he needs help?

If he doesn't appoint a guardian then the court can appoint one for him. Obviously he has been in denial for years about this and someone has to compel him to a guardian at the very least if he wants to stay in busyness.

A court could declare him partly incompetent if that's what it takes for him to realize that he needs help. Anyone among his friends or relatives could file for an incompetence declaration. This would do him a favor.

https://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-to-legally-declare-someone-as-mentally-incompetent/
 
#67 ·
I understand that this is very close to you Toughtenor, yes, compassion is a good thing but the best way to help a person in need is to help this person face his responsibilities if he has caused damages to someone.

In this case of mental illness (not unlike if someone is otherwise incapacitated as for example people on drugs) the best form of compassion is to bring this in front of a judge who will stop the malpractice and compel the person in need of help to get help once and forever.

Compassion with no action is pointless, won't change anything and won't help anyone.

If you would have lost big, like some in other threads told us, it will be a bit more difficult to show compassion for the person whom has taken your money and not delivered for one or more years the goods paid.

There is a medium ground between compassion and revenge ( both of which I don't agree with) and that is called justice.

This was a year ago, where are we now? The same place

the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

He needs a person which will take care for him of his business. Again my wife works with many people with many forms of mental problems and disabilities, some of them are very functional some aren't , those whom aren't are subject to a person whom takes care of their legal and economic interests. There are countless of other decisions that Fred Lebayle has to take in his life all of which depend on how competent he is to face life.

He probably needs a legal guardian.

He is aware that he has a problem (at least that's what his friends say) but has consistently failed to take initiatives (that we know of) to solve his problems for at least one year. How much more does have to go wrong before he realizes that he needs help?

If he doesn't appoint a guardian then the court can appoint one for him. Obviously he has been in denial for years about this and someone has to compel him to a guardian at the very least if he wants to stay in busyness.

A court could declare him partly incompetent if that's what it takes for him to realize that he needs help. Anyone among his friends or relatives could file for an incompetence declaration. This would do him a favor.

https://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-to-legally-declare-someone-as-mentally-incompetent/
I agree with eveything you said Milandro... A legal guardian would be a good thing. Being aware of having a problem is one thing. Being capable of solving that problem could turn out too difficult. Could very well be ( but this is total speculation , though somewhat informed by havng some experience with the autism spectrum) that he is trying to work with the bigger dealers first and the individuals later.. Never getting around to the actual " later" because the first priority totallly drained him from energy . And then it becomes an even bigger thing to deal with after a while... Of course this is all horribly wrong and no way to run a bussiness.. He should save his business by trusting someone who could do the dealings and ten focus on making the mpc's...
 
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