King Super 20 octave problem

Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    19
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default King Super 20 octave problem

    I have a King Super 20 tenor with the underslung octave key. The horn is otherwise marvelous, but the octave key is giving me quite some trouble. The problem is that despite considerable spring tension, it won't stay down properly. If I do slap tongues on the lower notes, I can see the octave key moving (ever so slightly, but still), and loud lower tones tend to step up an octave. I've identified the problem in the octave mechanism, because if I close the key permanently, it disappears completely.

    I've tried to get my head around it, but the problem seems to be beyond me. As I said, the spring tension is quite high as it is. If this rings a bell to anyone, I'd be extremely grateful for further tips. Thanks!

  2. Remove Advertisements
    SaxOnTheWeb.net
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    31,779
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    I have never had quite the same problem but for some time I had the feeling that my new silver neck hadn’t the proper tension and in fact I was adjusting it all the time until a tech adjusted (at great peril to break it) bending ever so slightly the part of the neck that is in contact with the activator. I just took a look, and it is possible that a tech also replaced the spring at some point.

    The upper octave pad is rather thick (MM white Roo pad) and there is absolutely no lost motion in the octave key.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

  4. #3
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2017
    Fader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    5,156
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    I'd just move (bend) the bar that actuates the octave key out a bit and see - it's not a big move, so there's very little danger of breaking it...

  5. Remove Advertisements
    SaxOnTheWeb.net
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    31,779
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    not very easy, the bar is made of solid nickel silver (not brass) which is extremely hard and will never bend under unduly pressure but it is also almost impossible to bend without risking it to break.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

  7. #5
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2017
    Fader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    5,156
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    I've bent mine due to a similar problem - actually I held the bar and slightly bent the arm... it worked fine but it was also a small adjustment.

  8. #6
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    31,779
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    mine wouldn’t bend and the tech ( who didn’t in front of y eyes) told me that the risk was real.

    It might be different if your super 20 was an early double socket one, maybe that is the difference. I think in the earlier horns the octave key is brass, not nickel silver.



    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

  9. #7
    davevillajr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    526
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    Does the neck have any "pull down?"

    That'll mess with the octave key closing BIG TIME!

    Might be super slight - get it checked. Or - push UP on the neck and flex it back into place - it works with the beater horns kids use at school, what could possibly go wrong? haha
    Please help fund the repair of my crash damaged 1949 Buescher Big B:

    https://www.gofundme.com/b6nssn2c

  10. #8
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Bass Sax Boss saxtek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    1,676
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    King necks do have a tendency to bend down when there is a lot of pressure on the top side of the mouthpiece. However, the problem may be the shape of the neck octave key spring. It is totally different from other octave key springs.
    Check Youtube for my videos of bass sax, contrabass sax, tubax, and soprillo:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/saxtek

  11. #9
    Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    15,761
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    not very easy, the bar is made of solid nickel silver (not brass) which is extremely hard and will never bend under unduly pressure but it is also almost impossible to bend without risking it to break.
    I often bend nickel silver, both to straighten it and to adjust (correct) key alignment. I don't recall it ever breaking. (Of course appropriate pliers are needed.)
    Silver-brazing may part if it was badly done.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  12. #10
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    31,779
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    I am glad to hear that.

    This key, however, as I witnessed in person when the tech worked on it, is as hard as it comes and the tech, one of the most experienced people when it comes to metal repairs in the NL was very clears about the risks involved and warned me beforehand.


    The tech referred to the key itself which is “ forged” I think , not the solder.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

  13. #11

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    19
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    Thanks to everyone for the input. If either the octave key or the neck need to be bent into form, I'll just give up and take it to a repairer. Although I have to say I can't figure out how/why a bent neck could cause the problem, because the leak only seems to happen when proper air pressure is applied. But maybe that's just me.

    Pull-down of the neck has never been a problem with any of my other horns. Is silver particularly vulnerable in this regard or does it tend to happen with all tenor necks regardless of the material?

  14. #12
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    31,779
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: King Super 20 octave problem

    pull down can happen with any metal and silver might be thinner and softer than brass but the super 20 neck has a proper brace to prevent this.

    IF any pull down has happend it should show some signs at the very least by the brace. My neck wasn’t pulled down but was purchased aftermarket and fit is not universal not even with horns of the same brand.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •