Sax on the Web Forum banner

Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

17K views 57 replies 22 participants last post by  buddy lee 
#1 · (Edited)
Interesting sax v sax tenor comparison over a whole weekend:

Lupifaro Platinum v Selmer Reference 36

Both are meant to embody some of the character of earlier famous Selmer models. The Lupi is said to be a cross between a SBA and Mk VI and has some of the Mk VI direct, strong character minus that fringe of tonal sizzle on a good one. The Selmer is said to pay homage to the Balanced Action and is warmer and deeper than the Lupi. Both are great - in their own way.

Lupifaro has a clear, powerful, fresh tone with a resonant mid-weight bottom end. There's a very even tone across the registers, a sense of energy and drive in the sound. It's not raw, neither is it sweet. It is an excitingly vibrant sound to listen to. The tone is centered and keeps its tonal integrity when pushed.
Selmer ref 26 is warm, round with a nice cut to the sound, a hint of sparkle and a consistently lyrical quality. Big, deep-toned, resonant bottom end. There's a sense of layered harmonics and smoothness to the sound. It responds with a nice bit of grit and growl when demanded of it. The tonal character is slightly spread.

Lupifaro altissimo is easy to play, tunes very, very well and is strong. No F# key.

Selmer altissimo is also easy to play, but tuning is less consistent with traditional front fingering across the lower alt E to G. Front F plays in tune, front F# plays flat. Front E wants to play sharp so the side F key needs to be set low enough to vent down the E closer into tune which muddies the note a bit. So this was adjusted only a little and the height of the bell keys opened up, and that does improve the alt E a lot without flattening F. I thought this may have been neck related and wondered if another neck might play better, but I think it was down to set up.

Tuning across the other registers is excellent on both.

Both subtone beautifully.

Both have a remarkably similar feel to how air blows through the horn; a very similar degree of resistance, which means moderately free-blowing with a perception of a little pressure to shape against.

Lupifaro has simple minimalist keywork, and the stacks are mounted on basicshaped long ribs. It came with a great set up, and only the pinky table needed a little lightening for my taste.
Selmer has sophisticated modern keywork on mini ribs, and a really beefy bell mount for the body to bell brace. The pinky table needed just a little lightening, and the lower stack also needed a little lightening to play with a totally even feel across the instrument.

Both instruments have tight, responsive keywork, and exactly the same system of bullet shaped point screws and metal sprung receiving inserts at the end of the rods. The size of the screws on the Lupifaro are thinner and in shape are more pointed than the Selmers. The height of the Lupi bottom stack is set a little lower than the Selmer. Even with mini ribs, the extra brass in the keywork of the Selmer makes for a heavier instrument than the Lupi. Neither have adjustable stack screws, which I think is an omission.

The finish of the Lupi is a yellow lacquer, that perhaps tries to imitate the dull golden worn look of brass on an old instrument. It's fine but an acquired taste.
The finish of the Selmer is traditional clear golden lacquer, and this one shows a fair degree of lacquer wear on the left hand side of the body.

The common point in intention of the tenors' designers - to create a vintage-inspired sound - is where the similarities end. They are in fact very different horns with their own tonal imprint. Both are accomplished and deeply satisfying in their own right.
 
See less See more
#9 ·
Thanks for the review. I had tried both myself (the lupifaro just recently though). I have a ref 36 and I love it, but if had to go through the same long search for consistency I had with my selmer 5 years ago, I would definitely go for the lupifaro. I spent 3 F...... weeks trying different horns (not only selmers). Unfortunatelly they didn't have the Lupifaros at Sax.co then when I was living in Europe.
 
#11 · (Edited)
A little update for you all re the Selmer.

I found that some of the nicest necks I've played have a really small, barely noticeable convexity about 1-2 cms above the tenon where the neck starts to bend. You can feel it by running a forefinger back and forth to feel the internal curvature. The Lupifaro neck has that feel for example. The 36 neck didn't. So very carefully I burnished the inside of the neck in this part with a long-neck, light, fine-headed hammer, gently but with a modest pressure, running the head back and forth within that 1 cm patch taking care not to touch the tenon itself.

Having done so for about 30 seconds, there are no external signs of any change, the shape of the external cylinder isn't obviously different to the eye at all. But there is a subtle difference achieved by feel to the internal curvature in that spot, and the resonance and sparkle is noticeably increased.

I'm not suggesting you should do the same, but I wanted to share the quite obvious change that very fine adjustments made to the crook can have. I guess why crooks are so variable one to another. Fractional differences have a perceptible effect.
 
#44 ·
Surprised no response to the below. If "real" it's pretty damn amazing-tell us more..I'm all ears!
A little update for you all re the Selmer.

I found that some of the nicest necks I've played have a really small, barely noticeable convexity about 1-2 cms above the tenon where the neck starts to bend. You can feel it by running a forefinger back and forth to feel the internal curvature. The Lupifaro neck has that feel for example. The 36 neck didn't. So very carefully I burnished the inside of the neck in this part with a long-neck, light, fine-headed hammer, gently but with a modest pressure, running the head back and forth within that 1 cm patch taking care not to touch the tenon itself.

Having done so for about 30 seconds, there are no external signs of any change, the shape of the external cylinder isn't obviously different to the eye at all. But there is a subtle difference achieved by feel to the internal curvature in that spot, and the resonance and sparkle is noticeably increased.

I'm not suggesting you should do the same, but I wanted to share the quite obvious change that very fine adjustments made to the crook can have. I guess why crooks are so variable one to another. Fractional differences have a perceptible effect.
 
#16 ·
Granted the finish on my Lupifaro isn't in the same league as Selmer but it's acceptable. It's an instrument from a couple of years ago. The assembly is entirely solid, and certainly artisanal. If they are not cleaning up post soldering on the new instruments then they need to get a grip on scaling numbers vs quality of finish. The intrinsic quality of the instrument is unquestionably high. Then it's a question of whether you like the tone production, playability and tuning. That's what I focused on in the comparative review.

I think you've got it wrong on the body and bell. Those are made from sheet brass and formed in Italy.
 
#17 ·
The instrument I tried sounded pretty good.
Of course, I can't base my evaluation on the quality of a single instrument: that tenor I tried in that local shop was really crappy assembled, I can't speak for the others Lupifaro, for sure.

I don't know where those are made... I had just read on another thread here on SaxOnTheWeb, there was a user who had a talk with the supplier of Lupifaro parts at the 2017 Music China show: https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...c-China-show&p=3134210&viewfull=1#post3134210
 
#18 · (Edited)
Thanks for the link to the other thread Tzadik. Interesting and a great thread.

I had gathered the Lupifaro line other than the Platinum model reviewed here is made in China or Taiwan as well as the keywork for all the saxes including the Platinum.

I understand the bodies and necks of the Lupifaro Platinum are made in Italy. The cosmetic finish of the Selmer is light years ahead of the Lupifaro. It's an area the Lupifaro should do better given the money they are charging. The keywork on the Selmer is a lot more sophisticated as well. But the out of the factory set up of the Lupifaro was clearly better than Selmers.
 
#20 ·
Tzadik,bBetter to look at the Luca Cardinali website http://www.cardinali.it/il-sax-lupifaro/

"The first steps

Already these early phases are characterised by the manual nature of the work, demonstrating that a truly unique instrument can not be realised by relying solely on modern techniques using numerically controlled machines."

They are not burning the lacquer on the Facebook post you refer to :) They are annealing the brass. To my knowledge most manufacturers do it one way or another. It's a step before burnishing the body and bell, soldering on the posts and key work, and before lacquer is applied.

It does make for a VERY different finish compared to the sophistication of the Selmer ref 36; unquestionably much more obviously artisanal in its finished look, and less well finished than the traditional master artisans of Paris from the pre-computerised industrial period such as Selmer, SML and Buffet; perhaps more like the cosmetic quality of a later Beaugnier (but with far nicer keywork and action).
 
#21 ·
They are not burning the lacquer on the Facebook post you refer to :) They are annealing the brass. To my knowledge most manufacturers do it one way or another. It's a step before burnishing the body and bell, soldering on the posts and key work, and before lacquer is applied.
When I see an artisan handling a welding torch and talk about "thermal threaments", I only start smiling. :)
Those pictures are just fictional.
Annealing the brass involves different tools, techniques, designing... and knowledge.
Annealing means you have to heat up a piece of a metal alloy (steel, brass... almost every kind of alloy of any metal) with a specific heating ra.
When you hit the specific temperature for the type of annealing you need, you need to keep the piece of metal at that temperature for a specific time (for the type of annealing you need)... then you cool it down with a specific cooling degree (for the type of annealing you need).
You have TTT CCT curves, you have FEM softwares to calculate times and temperatures according to the shape of the piece (that's why you need to have the 3d model of the parts of the instruments... instead of only 2d drawings).
Remember that metallurgy is not a myth, it's a science.

Does that torch make something to the brass? Yes.
Is that annealing? Uhmmm... no. not at all... not what "annealing" is supposed to be according to what metallurgy says. :)
Would you cook a t-bone steak with a lighter? No... difficult job, impossible to get it medium-rare. MacGyver would be able to do that, but only on emergency and high risk situation. And I really doubt he could make it medium-rare.

Those pictures are just fictional, just for advertisement...

If it was an attempt of annealing with a welding torch... you'll see all the keywork falling down (the keywork is attached to body via soldering, brazed with tin... check out the welding temperature of the tin and the range of temperatures to anneal the a copper alloy): https://i0.wp.com/www.lupifaro.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/foto-01.jpg

Sincererly, if I have to handle and work a welding torch (or an arc welder)... I'll wear safety clothing for the job, not casual stuff.

Conclusion: if the horns play good, it's not because of what they are trying to do in the pictures.
They sound good and that's it! That's what matters! :bluewink:
 
#22 ·
That's absolutely true Tzadik: what matters is the playability, quality of the sound, and longevity of the instrument.

I hear you, but for the Lupifaro venture to succeed, what also matters beyond producing an excellent instrument that top musicians want to play, is trust, reputation and brand atmosphere. So I would be a little cautious of suggesting that the whole Made in Italy thing is an elaborate, fictional smokescreen to obscure the manufacturing origin of the body, unless of course you're sure that's the case.
 
#23 ·
That's absolutely true Tzadik: what matters is the playability, quality of the sound, and longevity of the instrument.

I hear you, but for the Lupifaro venture to succeed, what also matters beyond producing an excellent instrument that top musicians want to play, is trust, reputation and brand atmosphere. So I would be a little cautious of suggesting that the whole Made in Italy thing is an elaborate, fictional smokescreen to obscure the manufacturing origin of the body, unless of course you're sure that's the case.
This horn looks like a Lupifaro. Didn't a SOTW member who lives in China confirm the factory is in China? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Profession...547672?hash=item1a2d6202d8:g:U08AAOSw5cRZJAiR
 
#36 · (Edited)
It's an Asian assembled copy, confirmed by Lupifaro as fake: could be a very good one, who knows, but it will not sound the same as the ones produced in Italy.

As Davey (Borganiboy) says above, the Platinum Lupifaro is a very good horn. Since the point of the original post was a comparative review, to try to describe the differences between 2 very good tenors, I hope that the beginning of this thread is helpful to you in figuring out the horn that works best for your sound concept.

Bottom, line buy the Platinum for its even tone and faultless tuning throughout the instrument, a really solid core, and a sound that's pure, characterful, lively. Alternatively, buy the Reference 36 for its warm, rich depth of tone, a certain amount of sizzle with the right mouthpiece, and its beautifully crafted key action.
 
#37 ·
From Roberto Upazzoli.

Yesterday one of our friends from UK sent us a link with a picture of an evident copy (different neck key and missing "made in Italy" stamp) from our saxophones and the intelligent comment of someone claiming our Lupifaro Platinum were a chinese product in value of 300 USD.
First of all we are very proud that someone copys our saxophones. It means our brand is already so famous in the world that is interesting to copy it.
But, if you believe that, you also believe:
1) That Lou Marini from the Blues Brothers, Chad Lefkowitz, Mario Marzi (first saxophon of the Scala in Milano),some teacher of the Berklee and a lot of other great musicians are completly idiots and have no idea of saxophones, then they left their vintage saxophones to play on a chinese 300 usd instrument.
2) That Selmer, Yamaha, Yanagisawa and all this brands are all thieves, then they sells for many thousend of dollars instruments that plays like our 300 usd chinese one...
So please try the instruments and finally use your ears and your brains.
If you believe it, please buy this chinese copys and have fun with!
By the way, some of our instruments has been stolen from 2 shops in Germany. So if you find somewhere Lupifaro instruments for sale for a strange price, they could also be original, but please pay attention, they could be the stolen ones.
I recommend to buy only from official dealers or from private persons who can prove the origin of their instruments.
Thank you
Roberto
 
#46 ·
A little update for you all on the comparison, this time focusing on Lupifaro.

Stuck on a Lawrie Waldron (LAW) LCD 7* last night, and it proved a very fine match.

Holds its own vs the Selmer Ref 36 with this combo, with its different imprint intact of course.

Impeccable intonation as always, a smooth delivery with a bloom of tonal colour bordering on sizzle in the mids, and resonant lows a small fraction less deep than the warm, ringing character of the Selmer. The Lupi's altissimo sings - really sings - with this piece.

Both are such fine tenors.
 
#49 ·
Interesting thread. Thanks everyone. Especially the initial poster for the great comparison. Having played a 1936 Balanced Action for nearly 30 years I've never met a Reference 36 I've liked. Maybe because I'm expecting it to be like my original '36 BA, and obviously it's a modern horn. I've only played half a dozen or so, maybe 10 max so I'm sure there are great horns out there. I actually have played some series IIIs that I really liked, which I was not expecting. However, I'm writing now becuase I played a Lupifaro Platinum today and was really impressed. I went to the shop to compare 3 SeriesIIIs and a couple of CustomZ Yamahas as I liked the modesl I tried last week. Of course, all the horns in the same family (same model, same finish) were slightly different, and all killer modern horns. Then I tried the Lupifaro, just because it was there. I'd tried two in London a year apart. The first one was really badly set up - out of tune and didn't seem like a pro horn to me. The one I tried a year later was great - very much like a thick, warm MK VI as Enthusiast65 says. For me it seemed to have "too much character" at the time. I preferred a more neutral horn that day, and I think I still do. However, the horn I tried today was outstanding, and perfectly set up. I just wanted to keep playing and playing - the best mark of a good horn to me. The other brands I tried were all amazing quality and had their own strengths and character, but when playing the Lupifaro I felt I could really manipulate the tone and get the widest variety of character and breadth of colour. The others felt more "locked in". As previously said, tuning and setup were superb. Maybe a little tighter action than I'm used to but very snappy. ALL the horns were sharp in the palm keys. One of my pet complaints/observations about nearly every horn I've ever played, so nothing unusual. I noticed that the Lupifaro and Custom Z had much smaller tone holes on the palm keys (like my old horn) than the modern Selmers and Asian horns, but still played on the high side. I'm sure I'd get used to this quick enough if I played them as my main horn, just like I've got used to the weird anomolies and quirks of my vintage horns. The Lupifaro feels great to me (as a vintage Selmer player) and plays wonderfully. A very rich, malleable horn. I said I previously found the horns too warm/colouful. I really enjoyed that aspect of the one I played today. And the variety of tonal colour within each note was very impressive. This is much more than the backup for my BA that I've been searching for.
 
#50 ·
Interesting thread. Thanks everyone. Especially the initial poster for the great comparison. Having played a 1936 Balanced Action for nearly 30 years...

I went to the shop to compare 3 SeriesIIIs and a couple of CustomZ Yamahas as I liked the modesl I tried last week. Of course, all the horns in the same family (same model, same finish) were slightly different, and all killer modern horns. Then I tried the Lupifaro, just because it was there...

ALL the horns were sharp in the palm keys. One of my pet complaints/observations about nearly every horn I've ever played, so nothing unusual...
I went through the same thing after playing a BA for many years. When I realized that it was ME, I went back to playing neutral instead of reflexively correcting/voicing the palm keys, and most every horn I've played since then has been in tune. Of course, having a BA and a modern horn may prove more demanding for the player if that kind of correction is required for one horn and not the other.

Then, some just ignore it and play out of tune. That seems to work too. (Not.)
 
#52 ·
OK. Did that. Now what?

Oh, rats. I get it. You played me. You didn't first say "Simon says", and I looked. That joke gets me every time. :(
 
#54 ·
Just about the same horn. Neck has the same badge, the keys, post set up, bell, bow brace much the same. I have seen horn no. 1 and 2 and the finish is the same sort, an unusual gold finish with clear lacquer over. The engraving on the no 1 horn was very similar to the Lupifaro. Both are nice horns to play. The first one is a bit lower in price.
 
#56 ·
Which can mean various things:

  • There are other horns from China that look like Lupifaros
  • There are horns from China that are exactly the same as Lupifaros, copied from and therefore counterfeit if they use the logo
  • Lupifaros are made in China and branded

and so on...

But I would say that why gasp at China, you can get some extremely;y good top end saxophones made there if you know what you are about.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top