Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors - Page 2

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  1. #21
    Distinguished SOTW Member. Tzadik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast65 View Post
    They are not burning the lacquer on the Facebook post you refer to :-) They are annealing the brass. To my knowledge most manufacturers do it one way or another. It's a step before burnishing the body and bell, soldering on the posts and key work, and before lacquer is applied.
    When I see an artisan handling a welding torch and talk about "thermal threaments", I only start smiling.
    Those pictures are just fictional.
    Annealing the brass involves different tools, techniques, designing... and knowledge.
    Annealing means you have to heat up a piece of a metal alloy (steel, brass... almost every kind of alloy of any metal) with a specific heating ra.
    When you hit the specific temperature for the type of annealing you need, you need to keep the piece of metal at that temperature for a specific time (for the type of annealing you need)... then you cool it down with a specific cooling degree (for the type of annealing you need).
    You have TTT CCT curves, you have FEM softwares to calculate times and temperatures according to the shape of the piece (that's why you need to have the 3d model of the parts of the instruments... instead of only 2d drawings).
    Remember that metallurgy is not a myth, it's a science.

    Does that torch make something to the brass? Yes.
    Is that annealing? Uhmmm... no. not at all... not what "annealing" is supposed to be according to what metallurgy says.
    Would you cook a t-bone steak with a lighter? No... difficult job, impossible to get it medium-rare. MacGyver would be able to do that, but only on emergency and high risk situation. And I really doubt he could make it medium-rare.


    Those pictures are just fictional, just for advertisement...

    If it was an attempt of annealing with a welding torch... you'll see all the keywork falling down (the keywork is attached to body via soldering, brazed with tin... check out the welding temperature of the tin and the range of temperatures to anneal the a copper alloy): https://i0.wp.com/www.lupifaro.com/w...03/foto-01.jpg

    Sincererly, if I have to handle and work a welding torch (or an arc welder)... I'll wear safety clothing for the job, not casual stuff.


    Conclusion: if the horns play good, it's not because of what they are trying to do in the pictures.
    They sound good and that's it! That's what matters!

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  3. #22

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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    That's absolutely true Tzadik: what matters is the playability, quality of the sound, and longevity of the instrument.

    I hear you, but for the Lupifaro venture to succeed, what also matters beyond producing an excellent instrument that top musicians want to play, is trust, reputation and brand atmosphere. So I would be a little cautious of suggesting that the whole Made in Italy thing is an elaborate, fictional smokescreen to obscure the manufacturing origin of the body, unless of course you're sure that's the case.

  4. #23
    Forum Sponsor Rich Maraday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast65 View Post
    That's absolutely true Tzadik: what matters is the playability, quality of the sound, and longevity of the instrument.

    I hear you, but for the Lupifaro venture to succeed, what also matters beyond producing an excellent instrument that top musicians want to play, is trust, reputation and brand atmosphere. So I would be a little cautious of suggesting that the whole Made in Italy thing is an elaborate, fictional smokescreen to obscure the manufacturing origin of the body, unless of course you're sure that's the case.
    This horn looks like a Lupifaro. Didn't a SOTW member who lives in China confirm the factory is in China? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...8AAOSw5cRZJAiR
    845-361-9353

  5. #24

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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Maraday View Post
    This horn looks like a Lupifaro. Didn't a SOTW member who lives in China confirm the factory is in China? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...8AAOSw5cRZJAiR
    Looks like a Platinum. It wasn't in question that there are a range of complete Lupifaro instruments made in China, or the key work for the whole line, but rather just the Platinum bodies.

    I have to say, if that were to be the same instrument, body included, it's an absolute bargain given the quality of the sound of mine. Observationally, the instrument has been finished to look like the Platinum model, but the way the key work is set on different ribbing and minus a supporting post or two, and comparing to the instrument to hand, it looks like it might be a recoloured 'Bronze' or 'Gold' minus their F# key. And if someone has pulled the trigger on this eBay auction and are in London UK, do let me know and we can compare first hand!

  6. #25
    dlrsax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Maraday View Post
    This horn looks like a Lupifaro. Didn't a SOTW member who lives in China confirm the factory is in China? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...8AAOSw5cRZJAiR
    Here is a Chinese assembled Lupifaro:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I believe that eBay horn is a Mengsha TS-1099 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm...id=39819324273

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by dlrsax View Post
    Here is a Chinese assembled Lupifaro:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I believe that eBay horn is a Mengsha TS-1099 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm...id=39819324273
    Out of curiosity. Do they still produce any horns out of Italy? Are some models still produced in Italy and others from China? Or have they just switched over completely?
    Don't do drugs. Do Overtones.

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  8. #27

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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by dlrsax View Post
    Here is a Chinese assembled Lupifaro:


    I believe that eBay horn is a Mengsha TS-1099 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm...id=39819324273
    Thanks for sharing!

  9. #28
    Forum Sponsor Rich Maraday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by dlrsax View Post
    Here is a Chinese assembled Lupifaro:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	TB2BZqztFXXXXc_XXXXXXXXXXXX_!!388027393.jpg 
Views:	26 
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ID:	152850Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	152866Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	152874Click image for larger version. 

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    $600 -$800 as opposed to $4000.00. I love fresh clean air.
    I believe that eBay horn is a Mengsha TS-1099 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm...id=39819324273

    delete
    845-361-9353

  10. #29

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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Maraday View Post
    delete
    Would you care to elucidate?

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzadik View Post
    When I see an artisan handling a welding torch and talk about "thermal threaments", I only start smiling.
    Those pictures are just fictional.
    I respectfully disagree. The heat from a torch is real. I have scars on the back of my hand as personal evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzadik View Post
    Annealing the brass involves different tools, techniques, designing... and knowledge.
    Annealing means you have to heat up a piece of a metal alloy (steel, brass... almost every kind of alloy of any metal) with a specific heating ra.
    When you hit the specific temperature for the type of annealing you need, you need to keep the piece of metal at that temperature for a specific time (for the type of annealing you need)... then you cool it down with a specific cooling degree (for the type of annealing you need).
    You have TTT CCT curves, you have FEM softwares to calculate times and temperatures according to the shape of the piece (that's why you need to have the 3d model of the parts of the instruments... instead of only 2d drawings).
    Remember that metallurgy is not a myth, it's a science.
    TTT diagrams are only appropriate for materials that undergo phase transitions - that is NOT what is pertinent here, where "annealing" regards the recovery of dislocations whose unfettered accumulation would lead to cracking. Annealing with a torch is real and appropriate to working sheet brass, and it worked well for a long time before the invention of computers. Witness also the working of iron and steel products by a blacksmith. An experienced blacksmith can gage the resistance to deformation and know when it is time to heat the material sufficiently hot (as characterized by color) to resume working. Now, of course, we know WHY it works, but it works nonetheless.
    Go for The Tone,

    g



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  12. #31
    Distinguished SOTW Member. Tzadik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr G View Post
    I respectfully disagree. The heat from a torch is real. I have scars on the back of my hand as personal evidence.
    True story.
    But if "big fours" (Selmer, Yamaha... Yanagisawa... Keilwerth) use induction ovens to anneal the bodies/neck/bows (... the stuff you don't see on YouTube)... I think they have their reasons to use ovens instead torches.
    (I may think they use ovens... because they manage to anneal tenths of saxophones/body parts at the same time = time saving process and the process is more accurate).

    Honestly, I've seen myself ""people"" who was annealing saxophone bodies... and it was a long process* using only the torch. (* = several cycles of heating/cooling down and not based on actuall science...).
    ... but the keywork was not already installed on the body and even the the toneholes were alrealdy levelled down: every piece was still "rough" at least.

    The heat is real**, but the overall process is fictional in those pics. (**: I'm still learning about "reverse searing" if the steak is big).
    Heatin' up and slowly cooling down the bodies is done at different stages of the saxophone production... during the forming and also once the bodies/bows/bells/necks are ready to be assembled, for different reason (as we everybody know). But the temperature you need to anneal brass... easily melt down the tin above the post/ribs. (As said... the real annealing is done with inductions ovens but the bodies are not finished yet at that stage!).
    If you see that (= a torch on the brand logo till it's blue) made on finished engraved body (with the post/ribs brazed on)... that's just a showcase.

  13. #32
    (formerly borganiboy) Borganiboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    The Lupifaro Platinum is a very very good horn. As for the Ref 36 I like them a lot also, a lot better for me than the REF 54. Just got a Lupifaro neck for my Hanson LX which is also a very very good tenor.
    Tenor Hanson LX, Andy Sheppard Autograph 10 mp, Soprano Hanson LX Van V16 www.jazzclams.com
    Alto www.spacegong.com www.youtube.com/saxdaveboy www.soundcloud.com/space-gong www.soundcloud.com/daveysaxboy-1

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    Default

    Sorry for bugging you guys but, can someone confirm the eBay post of the lupifaro tenor is the platinum model that everyone says is so good. I need to get a new tenor and a soprano if possible.....

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by Borganiboy View Post
    The Lupifaro Platinum is a very very good horn. As for the Ref 36 I like them a lot also, a lot better for me than the REF 54. Just got a Lupifaro neck for my Hanson LX which is also a very very good tenor.
    Why do you want a Lupifaro neck for your Hanson?

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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Maraday View Post
    delete
    I hate to say this, but 'clean air' is not an Asian horn that's a rip-off of the IP Owner's brand name.

    I have checked with Luca Cardinali, and the Platinum is most definitely not assembled in China.

  17. #36

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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by newjazz View Post
    Sorry for bugging you guys but, can someone confirm the eBay post of the lupifaro tenor is the platinum model that everyone says is so good. I need to get a new tenor and a soprano if possible.....
    It's an Asian assembled copy, confirmed by Lupifaro as fake: could be a very good one, who knows, but it will not sound the same as the ones produced in Italy. As Dave (Borganiboy) says above, the Platinum Lupifaro is a very good horn. Since the point of the original post was a comparative review, to try to describe the differences between 2 very good tenors, I hope that the beginning of this thread is helpful to you in figuring out the horn that works best for your sound concept.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    From Roberto Upazzoli.

    Yesterday one of our friends from UK sent us a link with a picture of an evident copy (different neck key and missing "made in Italy" stamp) from our saxophones and the intelligent comment of someone claiming our Lupifaro Platinum were a chinese product in value of 300 USD.
    First of all we are very proud that someone copys our saxophones. It means our brand is already so famous in the world that is interesting to copy it.
    But, if you believe that, you also believe:
    1) That Lou Marini from the Blues Brothers, Chad Lefkowitz, Mario Marzi (first saxophon of the Scala in Milano),some teacher of the Berklee and a lot of other great musicians are completly idiots and have no idea of saxophones, then they left their vintage saxophones to play on a chinese 300 usd instrument.
    2) That Selmer, Yamaha, Yanagisawa and all this brands are all thieves, then they sells for many thousend of dollars instruments that plays like our 300 usd chinese one...
    So please try the instruments and finally use your ears and your brains.
    If you believe it, please buy this chinese copys and have fun with!
    By the way, some of our instruments has been stolen from 2 shops in Germany. So if you find somewhere Lupifaro instruments for sale for a strange price, they could also be original, but please pay attention, they could be the stolen ones.
    I recommend to buy only from official dealers or from private persons who can prove the origin of their instruments.
    Thank you
    Roberto

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Lupifaro Platinum vs Selmer Ref 36 Tenors

    Quote Originally Posted by Scotssax View Post
    Why do you want a Lupifaro neck for your Hanson?
    Probably because it plays better for him.... why would anyone want an after market neck? Because it works better for them.
    Don't do drugs. Do Overtones.

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