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Venus Saxophones

178K views 307 replies 95 participants last post by  Mope 
#1 ·
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#27 ·
Don't worry, Doc. Chinese Flagyl won't come to the U.S.. It can't. There are trade barriers to the importation of pharmaceuticals into the U.S. from ANYWHERE. As a doctor you know that. Right?

Re: cork on Asian instruments.

You'll be hard-pressed to find real cork on Chinese saxophones simply because there IS NO CORK in China. That's a European product. Rubber, plastic, and wool, yes. Cork no. Perhaps you'll find a few pieces of what looks like cork, but for the most part, synthetics have taken the place of cork on Asian saxophones.

Re: finish wear. This could be hastened by the use of certain kinds of glues ised to seat the pads. If you had a pad replaced here in the states, the culprit could be fumes from the cement that started the breakdown of the finish.
 
#28 ·
Actually I'm an intensive care nurse, I'm the one who administers the drugs.

I buy Asian products all the time; I just want the cheaper horns brands to be a real bargain for the money and durable and do what I need them to do, and hold up to use... I'm tired of the disposable market. I bought a Home Depot pressure washer for $350 a couple of years ago, promptly broke it, got a real pressure pump put on it for $300 more dollars only to find out the originals are just designed to be disposables...very disheartening. I have a great modified $650 pressure washer. I would have been better off buying a better one to start with...I don't want to see a disposable horn market.

Guess you just get what you pay for.
 
#29 ·
gary said:
I hope there's a lesson learned here. Anyone notice that the guys who owned and played them gave them passing marks and many who never even held one in their hands trashed them?
Anyone notice how many of those guys had less than 10 posts? Sheesh! If you're going to make a shill review, at least take the time to post a few times in the "what albums are you really diggin'" thread first.

:D

Edit:

Gandalfe said:
What concerns me about the feedback is many of the people extolling the virtues of their cheap horn have very few posts on this forum. Hmm...
Whoops! Guess I should've read page two before I opted to be a smart
 
#32 ·
Bloo Dog, the Chinese products bashing has several and recurrent topics on SOTW, from many angles but it all comes down to " Us good, Them bad ".
No matter how much you (and I ;) :)) will scream and shout that a lot of it is based onto very little and mostly the (relatively far) past, those who see China under a bad light are well represented.
(I am not condoling the bad things of China here such as human rights and so on, but even western countries should be looking at themselves more critically, I think)

The argumet has been fueled by the recent products recalls and no matter how reasonably one says: ".... look there are examples of recalls oand tragic products failures in western countries too, yet you don't seem to think that tires exploding and bridges collapsing mean much.....".

I have said time and time again. When I was a kid in the '60 Japanese meant cheap and rubbish products.......I rest my case (it is heavy, and I am not so young as I was then ;) )

P.s. (I don't know anything about Venus saxophone, I do not necessarily endorse them. I have owned 2 chinese sopranos and 1 taiwanese alto. I am not a very good player and I have more that 2000 posts at present......does that qualify me to have an opinion? )
 
#34 ·
Sure, there's a LOT of bad press about China. There's also a lot missing in the fact telling, or some folks hear only part of the message. The lead paint fiasco was, actually, the fault of the BRITISH manufacturer that failed in its quality control and in its specifications writing.

One really needs to spend a fair amount of time there and to travel in order to understand how and why things are done in China. The good news (in many respects), the country is catching up with the west in many ways. I did marketing work for a chemical company which was required to pass several DAILY stringent tests over the course of a year before its product could bear any industry seal of approval. Then, the company product underwent UL testing before it could find wide international use. This is frequently the case for an increasing number of industries.

As Milandro pointed out, China is now where Japan was in terms of manufacturing, quality assurance and control, (as well as global marketability) back in the early '60's. The RMB is still tied to the USD and greatly undervalued. This makes China a great place to manufacture things which would be too expensive to manufacture domestically. If anyone got a cr@ppy Chinese saxophone, it is because it was made to crappy specifications or the specs were circumvented to save time and money. Blame the importer, not the manufacturer.

Many components for our wide screen televisions are Chinese made. You'd never know it unless you open up the TV. Even then, there may be no indication of the place of origin. If anyone owns a Lenovo computer, he'll know that it is actually a great computer (as long as one runs American-made Windows XP rather than American-made Vista). It's made in China!

Sinophobes should consider stocking up on their favorite western-made saxophones soon before western saxophone manufacture becomes financially unfeasible and the western brand names begin manufacturing offshore to cut labor costs. That Paris Original may soon become a Baoding Original. (Perish the thought!).

AND NOW FOR AN OPPOSING VIEWPOINT:

China has Mr. Goodwrench. Really. But that is little incentive for one to go out and buy the Chinese-made Chery or the Jili when they hit the American shores. The Chery is a reverse-engineered Chevy which is just a little larger than a roller skate. It is a truly rotten little car which is plagued by (among other things) engine failure and persistent lawsuits initiated by General Motors and the Rollerskate Manufacturers' Association.

The Jili was dreamed up by a guy who has, well, dreams. The concept behind the car is that it will be an affordable luxury car on par with the Lexus. (Don't try to understand the concept. It's really beyond western comprehension and anyone who hasn't experienced an LSD trip anytime during the last thirty years. Similarly, the average Chinese is a bit baffled by the concept of luxury mixed with transportation).

In order to avoid the tech talk so prevalent in discussion of automobiles, I'll cut to the most important part of this proposed bundle of joy.

Does anyone remember Malcolm Bricklin? He produced that neato car with doors that swung up rather than out.

He was also behind the importation of the first anagram on wheels, the Fiat (Fix It Again, Tony).

He was also the mastermind behind the 75% green automobile. Remember the Yugo? It was the world's first mass-produced, entirely disposable, predominantly biodegradable automobile. That car had more cardboard in it than a fifth-grade science fair. A little-known fact about the Yugo was that Malcolm had help bringing this Eastern Bloc nightmare to the U.S.: Henry Kissinger.

Ol' Malcolm's back at it with the Jili, but now his partner is a famous lawyer. The automobile manufacturer's motto is : "Four Wheels Beats Three Anytime".
Just for the American market, one model is being produced in different colors. The left side will be painted white and the right side will be painted black so that there will be conflicting police reports. This was the idea of the Chinese designer with dreams.

Anyway, I thought that I'd present a balanced view of China's position in the Global Marketplace.
 
#35 ·
It is not as much of where it is made but more of the deceptiveness of the distributors. I just want to know that if I spend the money, it will be something that works, that is durable. I just bought a Chinese made zoom H4 recorder for portable recording from Sam Ash. I like it and am using it.I bought a cheap Chinese no name back messager from a vender where I work. I used it extensively when I pulled a Rt trapezius muscle and could hardly move my arm. I just want the Asian horn manufacturers to deliver a good product and the American distributors stand by it and not try to unload a bunch of crap, on me, and separate me from my hard earned blood money.
 
#37 ·
Stephen Howard said these saxes aren't bad. They are quite good quality for the price and where they are made (China). He listed them as suitable cheap saxophones out of the tonne fo chinese he tried.

If you want an instrument we've had experience with, I could suggest a Largo. They are really good quality. Recently they just came out with a new rose brass model which looks amazing! But I have both the Vanguard and Vanguard Series II and they are both very competent. My cat knocked off my Vanguard Series II and it got very little damage. They are quite robust and the sound is quite nice.

S.
 
#39 ·
With all due respect to those players who are also not repair technicians the player's side of the new sax inspection is only part of the story. I have read time and time again on this forum and others how inexpensive offshore saxes look and feel and sound pretty good so they must be good instruments.

A good analogy would be driving a car, looking at its cosmetics and detailing, kicking the tires etc. and THEN taking it to your mechanic to find out the real quality of the mechanical construction. This is where instrument reviews by people like Stephen Howard really stand out.

I would suggest adding the following tests and inspections to robertllr's excellent review of his inexpensive saxophones.
-Bend several keys and then bend them back to see how soft the metal is.
-Remove at least 1/3 of the pads from the key cups to see the quality and amount of adhesive used to attach the pads.
-Pry on the resonator of several pads to see if you can pull the pad from the cup.
-Push against several key corks and felts with your finger to check the adhesive and see how easily they come off.
-Scratch the leather of a pad with your fingernail to see how tough the surface is.
-Remove the leather covering of a pad and inspect the weave of the felt underneath.
-Remove several pivot screws and check the ends for straightness and smoothness.
-Remove several pivot rods and check the straightness and the finish on the rod.
-Check the lubrication (key oil and grease) in these locations.
-Check all of the regulation adjusting screws to see if they turn freely---they should not.
-Check the neck fit with a neck leak tool to see if it is airtight. Many necks that feel tight are simply out of round and leak air.
-Check the bow to body attachment to see that it has been made airtight and not just a mechanical fit.
-Check the toneholes with a flat edge to see if they are perfectly level.
-Check the toneholes for burrs.
-Check inside the bore to see if the body is straight.
-Check the bell to bow alignment.
-Check the guard screws for tightness.
-Check the needle springs and flat springs for brittleness.
-Check the quality of the lacquer to see if it burns easily when heated.
-Check the tightness of the key pearls in the cups.
-Check for friction causing materials used where parts rub together.

There are many more tests that are possible. This is just off the top of my head. My point is that the quality of an instrument is quantifiable and a truly accurate assessment takes into consideration not only the playing and cosmetic characteristics of a saxophone, but its mechanical and structural attributes as well.

John
 
#45 ·
So how much are you going to charge me to repair the damage done to my MkVI after I subject it to this list of tests?

Some people are so anal about their horns, cameras, automobiles, etc.. I wonder what they do with them at bedtime. I suspect that some saxophonists subject their instruments to more stringent criteria than they do to their spouses or girlfriends. :)
 
#40 ·
I'm looking foward to the day when I can buy an inexpensive saxophone, and be amazed at what they are doing for the money. From what I've observed lately, that day is coming soon if not already here. Some of the advertising has been deceptive though, and it seems that almost anyone these days can get their personal brand of horn marketed, and frequently those distributors push those brands on the more ignorant public ie Nashville Used Music's "Bird" saxophones, they were the same horns as the Cannonballs when they first came out. Now Cannonball has set themselves apart from the rest with their newer saxes....They all looked identical a few years ago. If I were going to buy a new inexpensive Asian saxophone right now, I would buy either a Kessler or Phil Barone... I consider P. Mariats and Cannonballs expensive, because they compete on the same level as Yamahas with price....I plan on going to Sam Ash and play testing some more instruments soon. I definitely want to try the new Cannonball clarinets, they look cool.
 
#42 ·
I Some of the advertising has been deceptive though, and it seems that almost anyone these days can get their personal brand of horn marketed,
It's true how easy it is to import and sell instruments as your own "brand", although you can probably see deceptive advertising everywhere IMO.

Even before I visited the Frankfurt Musikmesse I was getting direct marketing emails offering me Taiwanese horns identical to P.Mauriats at a very low price. (probably due to the amazing quality of Chinese instruments now). I could have my own brand engraved, minimum order only $2000 worth. Not that I want to get into the saxophone selling business.

What makes something a real brand though is the consistent QA, and unless the importer is doing QA at the factory (unlikely) or playtesting and setting up before sending them out, then I would call that "badging" rather than "branding".

There are some importers who check the horns and some who don't. I believe those that do will survive. Just importing and putting your name on with no quality check is not good IMO.
 
#43 ·
There is a young lady in our Marching Band that has a 'Silver' Venus tenor. So far it has lived through 2 seasons with no repairs. It sounds very similar to the Yamaha tenors that the school provides.

I haven't asked her if I could give it a try yet, but I may. Just to see if they are on par with some of the other student models I have tested for students.

If our director, who is a tenor player, hasn't told her to dump the piece of junk yet it must be ok. More than once he's told students to get a better horn or get out of his band.
 
#53 ·
Hence my comment to stop the rude jokes :)

I think the blind taste test we had a few weeks ago was enlightening about sax quality vs. price. If it was possible we could do that more. Maybe get some really cheap brands and record them to deter those wanting to buy them :D Some of us with the cheaper models could record sounds (as I did with my Largo) and report how many hours we've played, any malfunctions and other issues to report. Would certainly be an interesting thread for future questions.

S.
 
#55 ·
Right.
 
#59 ·
On a positive note, if the Vibrato sax comes out as excellent as it seems, then we won't have to worry about answering questions about those cheap and scary brands of cheap saxes. JBT, I hope you get one when they're released and give us a review because I'd like to hear what you think. If you decide it's a good instrument (along with the other pros on this forum), I'd like to think new players will find the Vibrato on ebay instead of the really bad brands. Then anyone wanting a cheap new sax could be given the suggestion of the Vibrato and the sax world will change. Imagine if those really cheap brands on ebay went broke because the Vibrato was better? :) Vibrato have shown coloured models too, so kids wouldn't be disappointed either.

Repair options are certainly important and lots of the cheap brands are disasters, as players more experienced that I have attested to. At least with the Vibrato, if it breaks, you buy new parts or a new one. It may even be cheaper buying a new Vibrato than trying to get a junk model fixed up. At least the Vibrato doesn't need repadding.

(Okay, I'm done rambling. I was just thinking that the Vibrato for beginners instead of trashy metal brands would solve a lot of worries and arguments :) )
 
#60 ·
I think that few technicians will have much good to say for an instrument that costs less than an overhaul. A parent will walk away from a $400.00 overhaul when he paid only three hundred dollars for the instrument.

This is one of the downsides to the global market and the relatively strong dollar against an artificially weak RMB. American retailers sell the instruments (of which they bought two thousand at fifty dollars each), then turn around and resell them on eBay for $299.00 plus forty or fifty bucks shipping. That's six-hundred thousand bucks in the till.

The reason why some techs have bad things to say for third-tier saxophones is because they have to deal with instruments bought on the cheap for little Scottie who can't remember to put his saxophone in its case during halftime. The horn gets kicked down the bleachers, suffers several dents and bent keys. After ten such jobs, the technician declares the brand total junk. Why? Because every one of the brand X horns he sees has the same damage.
 
#62 ·
I think that few technicians will have much good to say for an instrument that costs less than an overhaul. A parent will walk away from a $400.00 overhaul when he paid only three hundred dollars for the instrument.
Parent buys sax on ebay $249 + shipping. Student is excited signs up for band. Sax will not play. Parent takes to repair shop. Tech discourages parent from throwing more money away on bandaid repairs that will be never ending due to quality of instrument. Tech also advises that cost to fix properly far exceeds value of instrument. Parent goes away discouraged. Kid quits band. Parent sells sax on ebay. Cycle starts again.

This is one of the downsides to the global market and the relatively strong dollar against an artificially weak RMB. American retailers sell the instruments (of which they bought two thousand at fifty dollars each), then turn around and resell them on eBay for $299.00 plus forty or fifty bucks shipping. That's six-hundred thousand bucks in the till.
$50 wholesale cost of sax less shipping, less import fees, less profit made by factory = the true value of the instrument in terms of quality of materials and skilled labor. You are making my argument for me. Thanks.

The reason why some techs have bad things to say for third-tier saxophones is because they have to deal with instruments bought on the cheap for little Scottie who can't remember to put his saxophone in its case during halftime. The horn gets kicked down the bleachers, suffers several dents and bent keys. After ten such jobs, the technician declares the brand total junk. Why? Because every one of the brand X horns he sees has the same damage.
This tech spent 32 years in the classroom before repairing instruments. I genuinely care that each student be given the best possible chance of succeeding in music. Poorly designed, out of tune, undependable instruments that do not play properly right out of the case are a real handicap to the student's progress. The sad thing is that many of the parents who are suckered into buying these "internet specials" do not have a lot of money to begin with, and do not have the resources to buy or rent a better instrument after flushing $250 down the toilet buying the "white glove special that is band teacher approved." Until one has actually "been there and done that" in having to deal with the shortcomings of these ultra cheap instruments in both an educational and professional repair setting I'm sure that it is difficult to understand where those of us who have had this experience are coming from.

John
 
#63 ·
.02 USD from the new guy.

Bloo Dog
I agree with you totally on the resale frame of mind. I am a pro, and I buy instruments to play on not to sell. There are a lot of people out there that are just OK players that have a museum of expensive instruments in their house. Guitars are a good example of things to come. I remember when you could not get a dependable guitar for under $1000. Now, you can buy a decent playable instrument for $200 dollars. The people that are buying $5000 dollar guitars will put them in a closet, and will not play on them. On the other hand I have a Dean Stylist I bought used for $175 dollars 9 years ago, and have been doing gigs with it ever since. This instrument sat at the guitar shop for a year before I bought it. People would not buy it because it had a small hole in it, although it plays and sounds perfectly fine. I could not get anything for it, but it was a worth while investment. On the other end, I own a handmade Miyazawa flute that I have not made a dime off of it. WHY? because it is easier to replace a stolen Yamaha 225IIs than the Miyazawa. Especially when you are playing in clubs/bars/coffee joints.

As long an instrument plays well, and does not fall apart, that is all that matters to me.

jbtsax

The problem with parents is the same problem with a lot of Americans. People want something for nothing. It is one thing to know what you are doing and you choose a low cost(cheap) instrument, it is another to be cheap. I am a part time educator also. These parents that you mention have more sense than you think they do. If a parent came up to me and asked me about a cheap instrument, I would make a recommendation, or sell them one of my spare instruments. More often, they hit ebay and buy the cheapest instrument they can find. Who's fault is it, partly the advertisers....but mostly the cheap parents. Unless you live in a bubble, there are just too many resources out there to find out what instrument to buy. There is just little excuse to be ripped off. People in the US have just been spoiled by the Walmart mentality and think this applies to instruments. Another issue is some parents refuse to buy used. You could get a used Armstrong 104 for $100 or less, anyday of the week. Even if it need work, you are only talking $50-$100 for a COA and some pads. Some people just think that new is better. I have ran into people that thinks its gross that someone else put thier mouth on th instrument.

On the other end, instruments manufactures and dealers have been ripping people off for years. I know first hand what some of these dealers are charging for their stuff. If you ever went to a NAMM show, you would be sick when you find out what dealers are paying for instruments they resell. Markups up to 600% or more. I saw a music store that was selling an Armstrong 104 for $650 dollars. I think that is just as wrong as someone peddling a $50 dollar flute. Sure the Armstrong may play, and techs may be able to work on it, but the parents still got ripped off.

The fact is, people will pay for what they want to pay for. Not having a lot of money is relative. Remember, these same people choosing to pay $100+ a month for weekly lessons! If you can afford lessons, you should be able to afford a decent instrument!

Phineas
 
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