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Is Liu Shizhao's "Pearls" a Saxworks Sanborn clone?

9K views 49 replies 13 participants last post by  Lambros 
#1 ·
I recently picked up a Pearls alto mouthpiece made by Liu Shizhao on eBay. It was advertised as a Dukoff clone, and I had seen one sold by Westcoast sax on Facebook awhile back where he compared it to Liu's Studio mpc (the one Neff reviewed), saying it was essentially the same piece.

But here's the thing. It's not EXACTLY a Dukoff, and it's definitely not based on an MB studio.

It's clearly cloning a modified Dukoff...

With this weird prounounced tip rail...

And then I notice on FB that Liu mentioned offhand in a comment reply that "it's a copy of a vintage Saxworks. But without a biteplate, and it's in silver plated brass."

I've never seen the mythical Saxworks Sanborn model, but the Pearls seems to meet the description. Here are some pictures of the tip rail and baffle below (these are off the eBay pics. I can take others if anyone wants). Is this a clone of a Saxworks Sanborn (itself based on a modified Dukoff)?

It is hand finished, it's beautiful, and it plays great, and if true, I got it a stupid good price (cheaper than a new Dukoff, used but apparently mint). It's definitely a paint peeler and bright. I wouldn't describe it as thin, though. I'm not sure what Liu charges for these new. There's almost no information about them out there beyond Liu's Facebook page.

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#2 ·
I recently picked up a Pearls alto mouthpiece made by Liu Shizhao on eBay. It was advertised as a Dukoff clone, and I had seen one sold by Westcoast sax on Facebook awhile back where he compared it to Liu's Studio mpc (the one Neff reviewed), saying it was essentially the same piece.

But here's the thing. It's not EXACTLY a Dukoff, and it's definitely not based on an MB studio.

It's clearly cloning a modified Dukoff...

With this weird prounounced tip rail...

And then I notice on FB that Liu mentioned offhand in a comment reply that "it's a copy of a vintage Saxworks. But without a biteplate, and it's in silver plated brass."

I've never seen the mythical Saxworks Sanborn model, but the Pearls seems to meet the description. Here are some pictures of the tip rail and baffle below (these are off the eBay pics. I can take others if anyone wants). Is this a clone of a Saxworks Sanborn (itself based on a modified Dukoff)?

It is hand finished, it's beautiful, and it plays great, and if true, I got it a stupid good price (cheaper than a new Dukoff, used but apparently mint). It's definitely a paint peeler and bright. I wouldn't describe it as thin, though. I'm not sure what Liu charges for these new. There's almost no information about them out there beyond Liu's Facebook page.

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They are his own take on the Sanborn Dukoff - based off the Saxworks with his own improvements

Retail price is @ $180 US in China
 
#4 ·
The tip rail 'pre-baffle' area is indeed different - can't say I've seen anything else like it IF I'm seeing what I think is there, a 'ramp' up from the tip rail to the actual roof at about a 45 degree angle. But beyond that, it looks pretty much like an 'M'-chamber Dukoff SPC. I wouldn't mind playing one since my original DG 'Studio' alto piece seems bright sometimes, and at that price its a no-brainer.
 
#5 ·
Yeah, the pre-baffle is what caught my eye. The only time I've heard of that was on the Saxworks mouthpiece, hence my curiousity. It's definitely pronounced and not subtle.

I'm normally a tenor player and I had a revelation that I'd gotten myself turned upside down by wanting to brighten my tenor sound and fatten my alto approach. I bought this after I re-embraced my fat tenor tendencies and decided to see how a more extreme bright timbre would feel on alto. This one definitely fits that bill. It's not exactly shrill, but it's really bright. I find it to be less reedy than the DG Studio to my ear, but that may just be my approach. It definitely has a native tendency very similair to what I've heard come out of the Saxz metal Sanborn model. I'm not especially going for Dave's sound overall, but sure leads you down that path.
 
#8 ·
I recently picked up a Pearls alto mouthpiece made by Liu Shizhao on eBay. It was advertised as a Dukoff clone, and I had seen one sold by Westcoast sax on Facebook awhile back where he compared it to Liu's Studio mpc (the one Neff reviewed), saying it was essentially the same piece.

But here's the thing. It's not EXACTLY a Dukoff, and it's definitely not based on an MB studio.

It's clearly cloning a modified Dukoff...

With this weird prounounced tip rail...

And then I notice on FB that Liu mentioned offhand in a comment reply that "it's a copy of a vintage Saxworks. But without a biteplate, and it's in silver plated brass."

I've never seen the mythical Saxworks Sanborn model, but the Pearls seems to meet the description. Here are some pictures of the tip rail and baffle below (these are off the eBay pics. I can take others if anyone wants). Is this a clone of a Saxworks Sanborn (itself based on a modified Dukoff)?

It is hand finished, it's beautiful, and it plays great, and if true, I got it a stupid good price (cheaper than a new Dukoff, used but apparently mint). It's definitely a paint peeler and bright. I wouldn't describe it as thin, though. I'm not sure what Liu charges for these new. There's almost no information about them out there beyond Liu's Facebook page.

View attachment 144730

View attachment 144738

View attachment 144746

View attachment 144754
It's funny you post about this mouthpiece. I was just going on a hike and for some unknown reason was thinking about this mouthpiece and how I should do a review of it. I received it when I got the Pilgrimage tenor piece but never reviewed it as I got side tracked........I have to try it out again and see what's up with it. It did remind me a lot of the SaxZ Sanborn model. I have never seen the Saxworks mouthpiece.......
 
#14 ·
I think there are a ton of us sax players "of a certain age" who picked up the horn in the mid-late 70s all in the same boat. More than any other player at the time, Sanborn made playing sax cool. I wasn't even an alto player, but in my head, he was proof you could be a rock star as a sax player. I remember even watching "One Day at Time" once, and Mackenzie Phillips' character once made a comment about how much she loved jazz sax, "especially David Sanborn." Everyone probably got a bit jaded by the late 80s by the time Kenny G ascended, but it was never a fair comparison - Sanborn, like Grover, is certainly transitional, but I don't think of him as "smooth jazz," though seemingly every smooth alto player basically apes him in one fashion or another.
 
#23 ·
Yeah, Sanborn was using the Level Air on that earlier stuff as mentioned. I remember he was probably one of the most prominent players using one.

You can hear him from that era with Davie Bowie

or with Gil Evans

While I remember hearing him previously, I have a distinct memory of hearing the David Live album with Bowie and was blown away as I never heard a sax sound like that.
 
#24 ·
I remember getting a Level Air around 1976 because of Sanborn's "Taking off" LP. (I still have it!) I was probably 18 or so. I can't remember the facing but I know I used LaVoz Med reeds. Went with a Dukoff 7 after that and now at 60, a Morgan 7M with Rigotti 2.5 strong suits me just fine!
 
#26 ·
Sanborn had that rock-inspired cutting sound and when he applied it to jazz licks it was just exciting. I think he invented what was to become 'smooth jazz' although his version of it was much more energetic and soulful than what you hear from players now. He made a Christmas album on soprano that I like too. He sold a lot of alto saxes for many manufacturers and blazed the trail for the many well-known 'pop'/smooth jazz alto players of today. He legitimized honking an alto like a tenor and he invented the 'split' high note effect which I think maybe he did because it was like a distortion 'scream' on rock guitar. You still hear alto players do that split sound and honestly I don't think half of them even realize where it came from. Many watched SNL just to see him play. Now here is a weird tale; there's an alto player around here who had the Sanborn thing down pat - in fact, I thought he was actually better at it. This was in the late '80s. The next thing I know, I see them playing and he's playing bass guitar! I guess he still plays sax but it's no longer his main thing. I haven't heard anything of him for a long time but as far as I know, he's still around. I don't know, maybe he had some kind of physical problem that limited his sax playing.
 
#28 ·
The thing about Sanborn that you have to realize is that he was one of the first to truly understand how the sax was going to mixed into modern studio recordings regardless if his track was going to be very forward sounding or deeper in the mix. I really love his sound on Jaco's first solo album where he is sharing the frontline with the Sam & Dave vocals on Come on Come over. Absolutely love how tastefully he picks his spots and opens up that sound of his on that song!
 
#30 ·
Okay, those tip baffles look normal, not the weird design of the other one IF I am seeing what I think I am - its hard to tell as the pictures are not optimal. But all those other ones appear to be based on a Dukoff 'M' chamber.
 
#36 ·
Steve I think it's the other way around: the d&s a2 is warmer/fatter but less detailed than the pearls piece which is brighter but much clearer more detailed.
Interesting. I wasn't basing that off the recordings but just my impression while playing from behind the horn. I didn't AB them but when I put the Pearls on after the D&S my first thought was that it had a fatter or bigger sound. I thought the D&S A2 was brighter and maybe not as complex sounding. I'll listen to the clips. I also have a D&S A1 I have to review which has a lower baffle than the Pearls and A2 so it will be interesting to see where that sits. Steve
 
#38 ·
Steve that’s the obvious benefit of listening to the recordings which reveal more than we can hear as we play sometimes. Again what I hear and what someone else hears purely subjective. I feel that I was quite objective/discerning when I listened to the 2 clips side by side.
 
#39 ·
Steve that's the obvious benefit of listening to the recordings which reveal more than we can hear as we play sometimes. Again what I hear and what someone else hears purely subjective. I feel that I was quite objective/discerning when I listened to the 2 clips side by side.
Yes, I believe you! I was just stating where I was coming from. i hate listening to myself play so I rarely go back and listen to my own clips but I'll bite the bullet and give these another listen. Thanks
 
#45 ·
Yeah, it's not that different, texture-wise, from one of Theo's Shiva metals for Tenor I have, though silver on the Pearls rather than Theo's gold.

As the OP, I have to say, a month on, I really enjoy playing this mpc. It's not that hard to push into Maceo territory if you need it, and the upper stack doesn't thin out (though you have to retrain yourself a bit not to squeeze the air column and stay open). I had a Theo HR Kali I was using prior, and while that is a wonderfully responsive mpc, I find the Pearls has more character and is more deliberately modern, at least in my approach.
 
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