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Hitting high D note?

5K views 37 replies 13 participants last post by  lesacks 
#1 ·
Hi, when going to play the Dmajor scale I'm doing fine until I get to the high D note with the palm key.
I think its me and not the instrument because two out of say five attempts I can hit the note & then other times I just get a flat squawk.

I am using a fibracell 1.5 reed with a yamaha 4c mpc.

I've been playing two months so still got lots to learn, any tips for me on this?
for the D note I am using palm key and thumb key, are there better fingering ways for alto to play this?
Or just stick with as it is and just more practice..practice..practice..
 
#2 ·
Hi,

That is a relatively soft reed for such a closed mpc, but everyone is different. First things first, as always, if you're learning alone and don't have a teacher, it's more difficult learning somethings, but not impossible of course. I would advise trying a harder reed, maybe a 2 or a 2.5, because what I think is happening is when you try to hit the high D you overbite, because mentally you think you need to do extra effort for it and you close the reed against the mpc, having a flat squawk.

So, try relaxing your embouchure when hitting that note. Try this - hit a second octave A and then with the same embouchure, pass to the high D. The fingering is the best, don't change it, and again I would try a slightly harder reed.

Best of luck
 
#3 ·
Good point...general rule of thumb (very general - it doesn't always subscribe) is that a soft reed is good for hitting the low notes but will close up on you for the highs, creating a squeak or no sound at all.

So, I think Kreacher's point is well-taken: try a #2 reed.

My question:

When you legato up to the D3, does it work better ? IOW, don't tongue the note...just go to it by blowing from, say....B3, C3 >>>D3.

Does it come out cleaner that way ?

(Basically same advice as Kreacher when he says "Pass to the high D from the A"....don't tongue each note, just blow and go up using solely the key fingerings).

It's possible its your horn, too...unless you have had it serviced/checked out.
 
#5 ·
I changed over the reed for a plasticoat 1.5 I have as a spare and it was much easier to get to the D
Couldn't get a 2 reed as the shops are closed, so that must wait until tuesday.
Also I find it easier to try to go from B or C# to that D.
TBH I usually only tongue the starting note really whatever I play.
I just don't like the feel of tonguing every note.

I'm having to move my hand quite a lot to 'find' the right palm key, then play the note, then get a good embouchure/sound... etc.
I'm sure you all remember beginner troubles. :D
Its a lot to take in for me at once!
But some good advice in this thread, so thanks guys. :)
I can now go from low D to less squeaky high D
 
#4 ·
I recommend a harder reed as well. 1.5 is too soft for a 4c, especially since Fibracells are softer than Vandoren or Legere.
 
#12 ·
+1

Do long tones every day for at least 15 minutes or more on the first octave from C to C until you can hold each note for as long as possible without the note wavering or breaking. You should be able to sustain the note the full time as fully and richly as possible and all the notes in that octave should be equal in that regard. When you can do that then do the same with the second octave from C#1 up to C3. C# being an open note may give you problems. Rinse and repeat.

Now work on the bell key notes until you can play them all as easily as the stack key notes. Long tones, long tones.

Finally work on playing the palm key notes by themselves as long tones working towards the same goals.

Once you have all this you can play the complete range from C1 up to F3 (or high F# if your sax has one) as full scales for each note, both bottom up and top down to get them to sound equally weighted and full.

The next thing....or you can do this at the same time in the same octave ranges as above...is to play the full chromatic scale top to bottom and bottom to top.

The chromatic scale is probably the most important scale there is anyway, although many people ignore it for some strange reason. I mean that since it contains every note in the entire scale it contains all the notes you can ever play and since most runs, licks riffs and phrases in jazz are filled with chromatic passing tones how the hell can you learn to play actual music if you don't have the chromatic scale totally under your fingers and in your inner ear?

The chromatic scale is the most important scale for improvising because much of what you are playing is not diatonic but chromatic. Bird's early mastery of the chromatic scale was one of the things that made him such a brilliant improviser and creator. He played every scale there is as simply part of the full chromatic scale because he realised that music is unitary and dividing it up into individual scalar segments is artificial and limiting. When you can do that you don't need to think in keys or in chords or other theoretical terms as you play because you are playing sounds that go together to create music. This is the ear and the brain working in tandem with the ear leading the brain much more. Theory IMHO should inform hearing and not the other way around, which is what is taught academically these days. The chromatic scale is to me the key to making that happen for you.

And if nothing else, playing the chromatic scale up down inside & out will give you the fingering fluency you need to play anything that comes into your head or is written on the page.

(Just my opinions to be taken as one sees fit. Feel free to disagree. I am not invested in being right or wrong, just in following the path that I see as leading deeper into the music.)
 
#25 ·
How about all of them.. :D
No problem.

1) Playing the second octave notes without the octave key is simply playing the first overtone of each note. If you are unsure about what the overtones are see this article on the overtone series by Pete Thomas. In sum, the first overtone (or second harmonic) is getting any note in the first octave to play as the same note an octave above, e.g. C1 to C2. Practice involves octave jumping back and forth without the octave key as well as playing the entire scale of the first octave up and down.

https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-harmonics-overtones

2) Once you learn how to play the first overtone on all the first octave notes with ease, you can work on the reverse, i.e., playing the first octave with the octave key depressed. Essentially this is using your embouchure to prevent the notes from jumping up an octave due to the venting of air at the top of the stack through the octave pips. The physics behind this is that if there is an escape of air in the cone of the instrument that will usually cause the notes below it to play as a higher harmonic of their frequency. The octave pips are designed do it purposefully to give you a jump of exactly an octave at will, but a leaky pad or neck tenon will do the same thing also to a greater or lesser degree depending on the size of the leak.

As anyone who has dealt with leaks will know, it is possible for a player to play a leaky sax by overcoming these unwanted harmonic jumps with embouchure control. For an experienced player this is often done unconsciously so that they don't really know that they have a leak or leaks in their sax because they have the chops to blow through the leaks. Preventing the natural venting of the octave pip is basically the same thing but to a greater degree because greater embouchure control is needed to achieve it. Hence is not easy for inexperienced players, but is a really good embouchure builder for the more advanced.

3) The last thing I mentioned involves getting the second overtone (or third harmonic) of a note in the second octave (any note with the octave key depressed). The second overtone is the note a fifth above the first overtone (or second harmonic). If you read Pete's article, you will know that if you play C1 using embouchure control you can get a series of overtones above it to come out individually as harmonics of the basic note. Hence you play C1 and get C2 next and then G1 after that and C3 after that. That's only the first 4 notes in the series (fundamental, 1st octave, fifth, 2nd octave) but it's plenty for this discussion. Again, you can do this on all the first octave notes up and down the scale.

Okay? But what if you are playing in the second octave using the octave key and play a harmonic on a note? Well, you will naturally get the note a fifth above that note and so you can play the entire second octave scale as a scale of the fifths of those notes if you want to. This is also good practice but naturally will be harder to achieve and some notes are easier to achieve this on than others. The one I mentioned, i.e., overblowing G2 to get D3, is one of the easy ones probably because of it is the note in the break between the lower and upper stacks. That's my guess anyway. Whatever the case it gives a really nice bright and loud D3 and for me it comes out so easily my main embouchure control comes in preventing it from happening without me wanting it too--especially when playing loud or growling (or my feeble form of growling). It does depend on my mpc reed combo though, as some setups seem to be more prone to it than others, just as some are better for altissimo than others.

Anyway, as Dr. G. has said, these are things you shouldn't jump into without first developing good embouchure control in playing the entire scale in the normal way as it may only confound your development and frustrate you in the process.
 
#34 ·
(...) Hence you play C1 and get C2 next and then G1 after that and C3 after that. That's only the first 4 notes in the series (fundamental, 1st octave, fifth, 2nd octave) but it's plenty for this discussion. Again, you can do this on all the first octave notes up and down the scale(...)

The one I mentioned, i.e., overblowing G2 to get D3, is one of the easy ones probably because of it is the note in the break between the lower and upper stacks. (...)
The second overtone is indeed G2 (instead of G1).

Also, I don't believe your explanation for the ease of playing D3 as an overtone of G (indeed, G1). In fact, this ease is a peculiarity of the tenor and I would associate it with the design of the tenor (the voices of the saxophone have "traditions" in their design: the bore of a tenor is not homothetic to the bore of an alto, even from the same manufacturer). It may also be (partially) due to the fact that the octave pip for G2 is not in the optimal position (which would explain why it's easier to play this overtone with the octave key pressed).
 
#30 ·
Damn that stuff sounds complicated!
How much would you use it as just a general player?

Like in how I can can do slap and pop on bass, but no tune in my jam band ever has anyone asking "Add more slap bass.."
My impression - as someone closer to your end of the learning curve - is that what is common in all JiAs exercises is that they require the player to do most the work through things like breath control, configuration of mouth, palette etc, internally hearing the target tone (not just pitch, but timber etc) while finger position is a small detail.
And what we learn from this (well, what I learned) is that indeed for the whole two and a half core octaves of the sax, all these things are involved. It seems like to just play a note you put your fingers thus and blow "property", and that's how we start. But I recon, for the great sounding people (classic, rock, jazz, whatever), where their fingers are is a minor detail - they are using the techniques you develop doing the above stuff all the time and that's where the difference is.
You say your low Bb is fog horn ish. Well, I guess, that's just one of many ways it can be played. The trick is to have that choice under control.
As a thought, that might help your high D - what can help is having the sound in your mind before trying the note. It might help playing it (without forgetting to transpose!) on a piano or (tuned) guitar and humming / singing along before trying it on the sax.... That is an oft recommend aid to getting the higher overtones and altisimo.
 
#27 ·
The things that one can do with sound have no limit and music is made by manipulating sound. So everything has a purpose. I only mentioned these things because you asked. At your level you are still far away from playing harmonics and overtones so there is no need to even think about doing it. Knowing what is possible and achieving it are distinct things and not necessarily binary either. Growth and development of playing ability is organic not sudden and takes time. Have patience little grasshopper and just tread the path. So for now just concentrate on getting a really good sound and developing embouchure control by playing long tones and making each note as full and rich as you can. Where you can go from there will come to you with time.
 
#29 ·
You'll have to read Sigrid Rascher's book for that. Or do a search on here for threads about the embouchure techniques for that written by someone who knows how to describe it in words. Everyone's vocal apparatus is different as is everyone's horn/mpc/reed setup anyway, so what works for one will not necessarily work for another. Plus I am not claiming to be expert at playing the harmonic series or altissimo and a lot of the effects that I can get are not thought out mentally enough to be able to translate into words.
 
#31 ·
+1

And thanks lesacks. That is a much better answer to his last question than I was able to give as some of what I have learned to do is now internalized and thus unconscious. That could be because much of it was achieved by lots of practice and playing and developed in an unconscious or hit and miss way. So now when I want to play a note a certain way I just play it that way and usually I don't have to think consciously about how to do it except if for some reason I'm having difficulties. I guess what I am trying to say is that the more advanced a player one becomes -- and I am by no means one myself -- your conscious mind is more on the music you are playing -- the sounds -- than the mechanics of how to produce them, simply because like riding a bike, you have mastered that already.
 
#35 ·
Thanks for the corrections of an errors of the sequence I made in my description.

As to the reason for the ease of playing that D3, I was only taking a stab at the reason for it -- really just a guess with no real basis in acoustical physics. The thing is however, that I have been able to blow an overtone on D2 in the same way, although not on any other 2nd octave notes.....yet.....as I haven't really taken the time to try doing it. I like the G/D one because when playing fast in keys with both notes in them it avoids using the palm key. Of course the intonation is not as good but when playing fast in blues and rock it's not quite crucial to my ear.
 
#37 ·
Stuff like that happens. I once had a doubling gig, clarinet and tenor. I was well practiced but had a hard time with the clarinet. It was much harder to play than usual. At the end of the gig, I took off the reed and saw that I put a 4 on instead of a 3 1/2. That gig was a lot of work. Some mouthpieces don't like hard reeds.
 
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