Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

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    Jazz Is All's Avatar
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    Default Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    I have no problem most of the time with that on my Martin Comm III especially since I play high-baffle mpcs with 3 and 3.5 reeds. But when I put the same setups on my 300,XXX Aristocrat E, F and G sing out beautifully but I can't get the G to separate out no matter what fingering I try. Instead I usually get the D above or even Eb. I can often hear a bit of the G in there but I can't get it to come out of the crowd. This is very frustrating as I love everything else about the horn and how it plays and sounds.

    Any helpful advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
    'We're going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn.
    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

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    Forum Contributor 2015-2016 SHOZZA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    What's the best fingering for G3 for you Michael.? Mine is B on it's own on the Bauhaus and B + high F# key on the Yany. I know the Aristocrat doesn't have high F#, why not vent another key to see if it works. Just a thought.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    Here's a good cheat. First, you have to get F#3 with octave, front F, RH1 (F) and side Bb. Let the RH1 go, and voila... you have G3. If you can't hit a clean G3 from the get go with front F and side Bb, simply slide up to it by using that F#3 fingering and quickly letting go of the RH1 until it becomes seamless.

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    I use the front F, and RH F and octave. Sometimes it helps to add the low C and Bb keys on the bell.

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    My F and F# always come out fine with that standard fingering and on the Comm III I get the G3 with Octave, Front F and Side Bb often enough. With some setups it plays better when I add G# and even chromatic F#. There is also a fingering I saw where you add Eb to all that too. With one set up I recall that G3 sounded better without the octave key but that is not usually the case.

    I have been trying those on the Big B and even with dropping my throat and trying to find and separate the G partial out, the damn high D or other notes jump out instead. Maddening really.

    I just tried what you suggested Grumps, and it makes sense really but for some reason this damn sax doesn't find it to be any different. I have been wondering if the Palm F is either not open enough or too open and am going to use some pieces of mpc patch to see what happens if I close it down or open it up. There are only so many keys that you can vent to get a high note before you run out of fingers and are playing twister with your hand, if you know what I mean.

    Rob, do you mean B only and overblowing it, or with the octave and Front F keys too? High F# is, as you say, non existent on these vintage horns so I am going to try venting something else. If it doesn't work I may be venting my frustration.
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
    'We're going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn.
    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    I just use the B and overblow on the Bauhaus, strong and loud like the F# every time. On the Yany I have to vent thehigh F# with the B, same again strong and loud. I can go straight to G3 every time, no need for any runs up to it. On both horns I use the octave key. FWIW Front F and side Bb don't work for me.

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    Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Forum Contributor 2010-2017 maddenma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    Not the horn, Mike. I do it all the time on mine. Raise your tongue in the back and quit relying on the high baffle piece to make it happen. As for fingerings, Front F, side Bb (to raise the pitch slightly), however, I don't use the octave key. I find G to be less stable with the octave key. Also, I have found adding the G# key to be a little helpful stabilizing it, but it's not a magic button and I often don't do bother to do that, particularly when I'm trying to pass through it. Just if I'm going to sit on it for awhile.
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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    If you are using fingerings that have the front F depressed, it may be opening too far. The F palm key should open about half way with the front F on many horns. To experiment, instead of the front F, finger A2 and open the palm F part way and see it that helps. You may need to tape some paper on the cork when doing this as it is hard to feel the opening.

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    Have you tried LH 13 + RH 1(3, optional) +side Bb +(Eb, optional) ? This fingering is more usual with an alto, but hey, it may be worth trying...

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    I also doubt it's the horn (unless something is out of adjustment). I have a couple of Aristocrat tenors and the altissimo, including the G, speaks very well on them. So assuming your horn is leak free and in good condition, then you should be able to get that note (the front F + side Bb works well for me). One thing I've always noticed about that G, no matter what horn, is it takes careful voicing; if you push too hard it jumps to the D. There's a fine line between not enough air and too much.

    Possibly what's happening is the voicing you need is slightly different on the Martin, so maybe you have to make a subtle adjustment for the Buescher. It's not unusual for different horns to respond differently, especially in the altissimo range. So bottom line, keep experimenting and I bet you'll get it. Then stick with the Buescher for awhile until it's solid.

    And then again, it could be something out of adjustment on the horn, as others have pointed out.

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce bailey View Post
    If you are using fingerings that have the front F depressed, it may be opening too far. The F palm key should open about half way with the front F on many horns. To experiment, instead of the front F, finger A2 and open the palm F part way and see it that helps. You may need to tape some paper on the cork when doing this as it is hard to feel the opening.
    I checked this out and it definitely opens to far with the Front F. I am going to see if I can adjust it myself using Stephen Howard's book on Sax Repair, but if I can't will take it to my tech to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alain Gen View Post
    Have you tried LH 13 + RH 1(3, optional) +side Bb +(Eb, optional) ? This fingering is more usual with an alto, but hey, it may be worth trying...
    Yesterday I tried this fingering and the others people suggested and I did get G right out in some cases. However it was G4 and not G3, which was nice except it wasn't what I'm trying to get. That is one hell of a high note and I doubt I'm going to need it.
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
    'We're going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn.
    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    I agree with closing the front F some.
    Has always made a difference for me and I'm useless up there.
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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Is All View Post
    (...)
    Yesterday I tried this fingering and the others people suggested and I did get G right out in some cases. However it was G4 and not G3, which was nice except it wasn't what I'm trying to get. That is one hell of a high note and I doubt I'm going to need it.
    I guess you're biting, tensing (out of frustration) or blowing way too hard because this fingering has the potential to deliver a G3...

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    Maybe I'll try a low baffle mpc with a small chamber and one with a large chamber to see if I can get it. It might be the problem is because of the high baffle mpcs I play. Then again I have no such problem on my Comm III, so maybe it will not help. Trying is the only way to find out. I might also try a harder reed. I have some 4's and even a 5, but since my operation I still don't have the lung power to blow them. My usual strength is 3.5 or 3.
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
    'We're going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn.
    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    I think you're working way too hard for that. Relax!

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Is All View Post
    Maybe I'll try a low baffle mpc with a small chamber and one with a large chamber to see if I can get it. It might be the problem is because of the high baffle mpcs I play. Then again I have no such problem on my Comm III, so maybe it will not help. Trying is the only way to find out. I might also try a harder reed. I have some 4's and even a 5, but since my operation I still don't have the lung power to blow them. My usual strength is 3.5 or 3.
    Jazz is All, no harm in trying different things, but I doubt any of this will help. Sure, with a super hard reed you can squeak out all kinds of altissimo, but do you want to play that reed all the time or when playing the lowest notes? First step would be to make sure the horn is in proper adjustment (maybe that front F key, as others are saying?). Then work on the voicing I mentioned earlier. You have to back off on the air a bit for that G, until you find the sweet spot where it will ring out. The voicing could be slightly different on different horns. It's a tricky note.

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    try adding the G# key along with the front F....

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    I had to close the front F in to about an eight of an inch, prior to that it was about half an inch open. That was the same as the palm key F, as soon as I did that the altissimo was there no problem at all. That was on my Yany 901, it was only a screw on a slide that closed it up. On your horn being a vintage I wouldn't know. Best of luck Michael.

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce bailey View Post
    If you are using fingerings that have the front F depressed, it may be opening too far. The F palm key should open about half way with the front F on many horns. To experiment, instead of the front F, finger A2 and open the palm F part way and see it that helps. You may need to tape some paper on the cork when doing this as it is hard to feel the opening.
    As others mentioned, the palm F needs to open very slightly. Look at the part that pushes the palm F up when the front F lever is pressed. Ususally a cork needs to be sanded to make the opening less. Easy job.

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    Default Re: Need Advice. Can't Get G3 To Save Myself On My 1943 Big B

    I use LH 13 + RH 3 on my 1941 Big B tenor with a Early Babbitt Otto Link mouthpiece

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