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Definitive Neck Compatibility Chart

7K views 28 replies 13 participants last post by  PigSquealer 
#1 ·
So we have a definitive case compatibility chart. A recent Zephyr neck thread has made me wonder: is a definitive neck compatibility chart desirable, or even possible? Have you ever used a mismatched brand of neck on your horn? And were the results bad or good?

It'd be interesting to chart such mésalliances to determine whether any felicitous results you may have experienced with mismatched necks are repeatable, or merely one-offs.
 
#3 ·
Yes, but there's also many that would destroy intonation on certain horns.
 
#4 ·
the variables are such that I think it is impossible.

It is not only the diameter of the tenon but the length, volume, and position of the octave pip, relative to all the brands of saxophones, coupled to the mouthpiece that each one would be using.
 
#5 ·
It is my understanding that many vintage horns had the neck hand picked. A player technician would select a neck/horn combination that met tune. Then stamp the matching serial number on the neck before delivery. The reason being that not only the horn but the necks also varied from being hand made. Now keep in mind this was at the factory. I have no doubt that a playable alternative neck could be found for any given horn. However I would find it extremely challenging to chart consistent comparable crossovers, but still worth a try.
 
#12 ·
Just an aside (not trying to stir the pot) - I am not certain this is true or just a very nice urban saxophone legend, actually.

Alternative story: the reason some makers have the matching serial stamped on their necks is because at the final neck fitting (once fabricated a neck tenon would still need a final tweak to fit a receiver), when the tenons would need to be expanded/contracted just a tad to really dial into the particular neck receiver...once that was done then the serial was stamped on the neck.
 
#6 ·
if that would be the case the production would have taken days and days like in the days when every clock had hand made wheels and screws all different from each other.

No, the saxophone was always the product of industrial making which is al based on standardization like the production of a car as invented by Henry Ford. There was a final test but not the kind that the previous contributor describes.

 
#7 ·
I think chart may be possible only on a small amount of horns.
However it still may have some usefulness for those with such horns.
For example: I have used several necks on my YBS 61 Baritone with great success.
A Phil Barone neck fits with the smallest amount of adjustment and tunes as well as original neck.
A Jupiter Baritone neck fits perfectly with no adjustment and tunes slightly better than original neck.
I know of others using Jupiter Baritone necks with great success on MKVI baris also.
I also have a mkVII tenor which tunes and responds very well with a series iii neck.
So there are some instances where this information would be useful for others with these horns.
I doubt that many vintage horns would be as easy to match up with other necks, but I’m sure some have had some success which could be useful for others.
 
#13 ·
I think chart may be possible only on a small amount of horns.
However it still may have some usefulness for those with such horns.
Agreed. If the expectation was that this chart would be quite large and encompass many, many models...I think that would be a bit of a fantasy.

I would like...once again....to drop in the donation of one Mr. Tendy to this conversation (because it's a great vid and should be spread at every opportunity):



If a person happened to buy an aftermarket neck based upon solely the tenon fit (with no other info available from the seller or other player - who may have already determined with what horns that neck works well) ...and that particular neck worked really well on their horn....

...that person got really, really (really) lucky.

Because there are a number of neck specifications which determine a good neck match (beyond tenon fit).

From time to time I will take in a neckless horn, and using Mr. Tendy's method....come up with a good matching neck - and this process has ZERO to do with tenon diameter, actually - primarily b/c I have an advantage over other people in that I have a stock of Tenons which I can swap from one neck tube to another, as well as a stock of Receivers which I can swap out on a particular body - in order to fit the appropriately pitched neck to the horn.

Thus I have successfully matched cheap chinese necks with vintage horns, cheap chinese necks to modern horns, and unidentifiable vintage necks to both vintage and modern horns. And made the horns sound and intone very well (am not claiming that their tone matched what original neck would have produced, mind you - just that from a blowing response and intonation standpoint...it was a success). But most of time this process has had nothing to do with trying to find a neck with an appropriate Tenon diameter - which is the #1 aspect a buyer would be focusing on.

Sorry for slight digression...I guess my point here vis a vis this conversation is:

Such a chart would have to take into account many aspects beyond whether the neck physically 'fits' the receiver.
 
#8 ·
****No, the saxophone was always the product of industrial making which is al based on standardization like the production of a car as invented by Henry Ford. There was a final test but not the kind that the previous contributor describes.****@ Milandro

I care not to debate the term hand made so, I will correct myself and say; hand assembled with machine manufactured parts. just like the video so clearly shows. Mr Milandro, would you care to elaborate on what exactly a final test included or maybe the reason for serial numbers being struck on a neck?
 
#21 ·
No, there are saxophones with other parts (like the palm keys ) marked underneath (in an area not normally visible) with parts of the serial number (the last two or three digits), they are not marked because of their unicity but simply as an ID mark.

I have had many saxophone in my possession (with and without serial number on the neck) in all these years of buying and selling them, this has allowed me to have several of the same model in my possession contemporarily and more often than not necks were absolutely interchangeable sometimes with no appreciable differences , more often than not.

In some cases even horns of the same design but produced at a distance ( Keilwerth and some Armstrong models) were absolutely identical and interchangeable.

True my Super 20 ( at one point I had 3 necks ) the tenon were no the sam but the sound of the horns was.

I had a Gloger neck made for this horn(made to exact King Measures) and the sound(after a first wrong impression) was not different from the original neck.

Any way the best person to as about this are people, Like Bruce Bailey, whom actually worked in a saxophone factory.

There are necks that the vendor claims are made specifically for certain makes, but in reality the ones that are sold are all the same neck with the tenon fit to the make that is ordered.
If you by any chance refer to Karsten Gloger this is most certainly not the case.

He has collected the exact measurements of hundreds of saxophones containing tenon size, length, volume of the neck, arch, position of the pip and diameter of the pip, and at least at the beginning he offered exact reproductions of the necks that he was replacing. Only after few years he was repeatedly ask also (not only) alteration so as to change the sound of a saxophone. From then on he also acquiesced to provide to clients a Selmer design (for example), less arched and longer, to people with a different type of horn but it was and still is not he way he normally works.

Other " makers" ( not all are some are just re-sellers) do what you say but not Karsten Gloger.

if you anyone wants to compile a list please do, I am not going to stop you, to me it is like putting water in a pestle and mortar and vigorously stamp and stamp and stir and stir you start with water and end up with the same.
 
#14 ·
Below is an example of neck measurements done on 1950 Selmer SBA neck for an acoustic study. I am posting this as an example of what it would take to accurately recreate a neck that is identical to the original. Note that the degree of taper is not consistent throughout the length.

Rectangle Font Parallel Pattern Number
 
#15 ·
Yup, it can get that detailed. And all your example concentrated on was taper (just a single aspect).

But is 'neck compatibility' and 'neck replication' the same thing ?

I took the spirit of the OP's post to be more towards the former...where an owner isn't necessarily looking for a neck with identical spec to the factory original, but rather a neck which works 'well' with the horn body...

I think if someone were truly trying to find an after-factory neck which would give their horn the exact same sorta performance as an original...they'd have no choice but to pay for a custom (or semi-custom) replica.
 
#16 ·
It is the taper and internal geometry that determine how a neck performs on a given saxophone in terms of tone, response, and intonation. What else is there besides cosmetic appearance? Granted the interior surface has an effect as well along with the octave vent position and opening, but taper is the most important attribute. "Compatible" is a very vague term to use with regard to a neck to match a quality instrument. Of more interest to me would be a list of necks that perform as well as or better than the original equipment.
 
#19 ·
I've had multiples of the "same" model neck on hand from a few different companies that played very differently, had different curves/ angles that changed the proximity of the horn to ones body, and slightly different openings on the cork end. I have no way of telling how internally consistent they were in bore. So even if you make a chart of which necks work on which horns, there'll still be a good deal of veriables that can't be accounted for user to user.
 
#20 ·
I’m digging to find that article that referred to the necks being Fit,tested and stamped upon completion at the factory....final check quality control.I know I read it over Thanksgiving weekend.(Late November) Having a senior moment can’t remember where. Would be interesting to qualify that information too. Pretty sure I didn’t dream it.

Having some source to refer to if you’re missing a neck is better than nothing. As a group how do we make a chart all can add to? Would be huge task for one person to do upkeep. /data input.

Biggest question is how to identify any given neck as many have no markings.
Something like?...

Pictures by groups(visual starting point)
specific measurements/dimensions(have input check list for consistent accuracy)
horns tested(have test parameters)
Mouthpiece/reed
results 1-10
 
#22 ·
At least with Selmers, their handmade nature makes it highly variable whether a neck works, even within the same model. My 1950 SBA neck works better than the original neck on my Mark VI for alto. On tenor nothing really beats the original neck for intonation, though I love the sound from my early Mark VI neck.
 
#24 ·
Obviously you have a great wealth of firsthand knowledge and experience. So is it possible for you to help the form out with some kind charting.. share a lifetime of wealth. So many forms are thirsty for knowledge on SOTW. Write an article?
 
#25 ·
Thanks for the trust.

I don't think that I could write an article on neck compatibility.

The best contribution that I (and many, many others) could possibly make is to give my honest opinion when someone asks a question neck question.

In general this would be is try and try but at some point if you don't find it pass.

I won't get it right all the time but the " crowd" does.

I don't know if you have seen this series, it is called " Wisdom of the crowd".

In short the principle is that any single individual can make mistakes but if you sum and collect (they did it with a huge computer system we will have to do it with our heads) many opinions, analysis, data and possibly facts, the collective will reach a conclusion which is averaging the " truth".

Going back to the original question.

So we have a definitive case compatibility chart. A recent Zephyr neck thread has made me wonder: is a definitive neck compatibility chart desirable, or even possible? Have you ever used a mismatched brand of neck on your horn? And were the results bad or good?

It'd be interesting to chart such mésalliances to determine whether any felicitous results you may have experienced with mismatched necks are repeatable, or merely one-offs.
The assumption here is that every horn starts its life with the best neck and we know this, at least in some cases, not to be true.

This is the reason why certain models have had necks changed during their run ( Buescher did that, King did that, Yamaha did that... and so on).

Besides the neck is part of a system, which includes horn and mouthpiece (and the player).

I have bought once a King Super 20 alto ot the 800.000 series (USA post Eastlake designation). It had an original overslung neck.

I have done anything to get it to play it right and I couldn't. I had also seen a Silversonic of the same series at a shop and the owner (a great player much better than me) couldn't play it in tune.

They lengthened a nd trhen shortened the silver neck and still couldn't play in tune, the they sold (as I did with mine to a carnatic music player who was happy with its intonation) at a greately reduced price .

I tried on this horn 2 other necks ( Yanagisawa 6 neck and a Taiwanese made neck) both with not satisfactory result.
 
#27 ·
I don’t make a habit of buying saxophones without a neck (done only once and had to buy an entire sax to provide a neck to the sax so now I had two saxophones and one neck between the two) or with a wrong neck (one time too if we do not count the aforementioned King )

Member JohanT bought a Buescher Aristocrat stencil from me, it turned out the neck was not original but that it played in fact, better than with the original neck, the neck appeared to be from a French saxophone, probably a Beaugnier, but the tenon and received had been changed on both neck and saxophone.

If I would be in the need of a missing neck my first stop would be Gloger, if he had no measurements of the original neck ( which we’ve seen is no guarantee of perfect intonation or sound) I would consider hanging the sax onto the wall because the chances that I would strike lucky by trials and errors are very close to none.

See the threads on the trials and tribulations encountered by Russlan on matching a baritone neck to his Santoni-Evette Schaeffer ... not.
 
#28 ·
Neck compatibility is the 'grey area' with saxes. It is not about size (tenons/receivers) or intonation -good or bad- most of those elements can be documented and taken as 'rule of thumb' For instance, Yamaha make a range of necks which claim to give different characteristics to their instruments , Selmer (Paris) do likewise as do Yanagisawa, these 'differences ' are usually only perceived by the player. The necks are sold as aftermarket accessories the buyer knows that they will be compatible -with sometimes minor adjustment- with their horn. In regard to vintage and horns with missing necks the sky's the limit-often a a neck from another manufacturer or from another era works fine in all areas.
Boutique makers like Gloger and Mike Barnes in England are care fully reproducing replicas of necks for given models based on mathematical and acoustic measurement to a high standard but the 'rub' is this....for whatever reason weird science or what? some of those necks will play better -or differently- than others.
 
#29 ·
Good to know. Also the newer Yamaha YAS & YTS 26 are the same as a 23 but now made with same neck fitting as the 62. So you can now swap necks on a student model. But let’s look at the original OP. Think help! Say my ‘27 Martin Handcraft alto neck just got pulled down or squished. I need an quick fix even if temporary. What information can I gather to find one local quick.not all technicians have a assortment on hand... Groningen is more than a hour drive from Los Angeles.😉 Music medic has Gloger here in states...$550(£400) and up.
A YAS 23 neck new OE is $90 and most all Yamaha necks are under $600 including the 62’s. So many would Park the horn and buy a new one..that’s how we get neckless horns !
 
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