Sax on the Web Forum banner

Embouchure vs Air Support

2K views 15 replies 13 participants last post by  JL 
#1 ·
I know this topic has been covered somewhat before and I've read through every post I could find about it but no one has quite answered my question yet so I was hoping you guys could help me out.

When it comes to the embouchure pressure (really 'support'), everyone says to stay relaxed, relaxed, relaxed. But how relaxed are we really talking here? Because at the same time, people also talk about building up embouchure muscles and chops. I know the mouthpiece exercise (for Tenor, blow a G with just the mouthpiece to find correct embouchure pressure needed) but then arises the issue of air support.

Everyone says air support is key for saxophone, because well, it's a wind instrument. A fast air stream, as people say, is needed to play in tune and takes off the work our embouchure would have to make up without good air support. So then, wouldn't the mouthpiece exercise be a test of how fast your airstream is rather than embouchure pressure?

Does a relaxed embouchure actually mean no pressure from the embouchure muscles whatsoever?
 
#2 ·
Hey Jdsully95. Am not the one that can give you an answer that solves your question but i remember when i asked a sax pro player about some tips about sound, lips etc ; he told me that the most of the answers i was looking for can find them by exercising overtones .And i think he was right.
 
#3 ·
I think a lot of the value of "building your chops" is endurance and the ability to do whatever you have to do with your mouth to voice your notes in the way that gives you the tone you want. If your embouchure is underdeveloped, you get tired quickly, your tone gets warbly, and you start to lose control of your sound.

As far as the actual amount of pressure used, it's probably impossible to answer that for someone else. I think it's largely a matter of trial and error until you know by feel how much to use to get your best sound. However, the ideal is to use as little pressure as you need to, as this allows the reed to vibrate. All things being equal, the more the reed vibrates, the bigger your sound. Playing with less embouchure pressure will help you to stay relaxed and play longer without becoming fatigued.

Also, I agree with Constadinr about overtones. I practice them every day as a warm-up and it's definitely improved my control and tone.
 
#10 ·
Some very good answers in this thread, but I think I like this one best. The terminology ("support" vs "relax" etc) certainly can be confusing, but as you gain personal experience you'll start to understand what people mean by these various terms.

At first, it's difficult to get anything resembling a musical sound out of the horn. (For most people, anyway.) There are a lot of muscles that you don't use or think about very much that you will need to develop strength in and learn to control. Until that happens, you're probably going to sound like a wounded goose. But gradually you gain strength and control, and you start learning how to adjust your airstream and embouchure to get a good sound. It's at that point that you start to realize what people mean by "firm but relaxed." How to get to that point? A good teacher, obviously. Long tones and overtones. Patience and persistence.
 
#5 ·
One of the things that's really hard to describe, but easy to do once you understand how it feels, is anything that involves reducing tension yet maintaining force. This is true of many things.

I use the image of a Labrador Retriever bringing a duck back to shore. The embouchure grip should be "firm, yet soft" - just as the dog has to grip the bird hard enough to carry it, but not puncture the bird with her teeth.

The real force in the system comes from your abdomen (let's agree to call it the diaphragm, even though that's not technically exactly accurate) and the embouchure has two jobs: to seal the air in, and to make fine adjustments in both the position of the pressure on the reed, and the amount of pressure on the reed. The theoretical ideal would be that the embouchure should provide only enough force on the reed and the sides of the mouthpiece to seal in the air; but no one actually achieves that theoretical ideal. But if you have an image in your head of the theoretical ideal, it will help you get closer to it.
 
#6 ·
Yes ^ I think of embouchure as a rubber seal... flexible, firm enough to keep air from escaping, but soft enough that it doesn't stop the reed from vibrating. Diaphragm I imagine as a fireplace bellows that pushes air forcefully out. As above, that's where the work is being done in this equation, and everything else should be relaxed IMO.
 
#11 ·
Everyone says air support is key for saxophone, because well, it's a wind instrument. A fast air stream, as people say, is needed to play in tune and takes off the work our embouchure would have to make up without good air support.
Who says a fast air stream is needed? If they do, how fast do they mean. Who are these mysterious people who say things without qualifying what they mean?

The topic title to me is somewhat confusing, as there isn't really a "versus" - it's not one versus the other, you need both.

It's also worth noting that "building up muscles" isn't really what you need, it's control of the muscles you already have. The best ways to get this (apart from just playing) is to work on tone exercises. Simple as that.

The best way to work on air support is to do breathing exercises. Simple as that.

When it comes to the embouchure pressure (really 'support'), everyone says to stay relaxed, relaxed, relaxed.
Again, who are these people? I would maybe say relaxed, but not "relaxed, relaxed, relaxed" - you do need some pressure from your lower jaw. I see people say "do not bite," and yet you have to bite. The point is to not bite too much.
 
#13 ·
Everyone says air support is key for saxophone, because well, it's a wind instrument. A fast air stream, as people say, is needed to play in tune and takes off the work our embouchure would have to make up without good air support.
Just to follow up on Pete Thomas's statements, you are either misinterpreting what 'people say' or getting some strange advice regarding air speed. Breath support is indeed very important, but it's not the same thing as air speed. Even when playing softly or using sub tone, where the air speed is slower, you still need good air support, as you do when playing louder with a fast air stream. And I don't think there is much, if any, relation between air speed and intonation.

Use your ear and work from there.

For good air support, as pointed out earlier, be sure to take a deep breath by expanding your abdomen (pushing down with your diaphragm), not by lifting your shoulders.
 
#15 ·
It's a wonder anyone ever learns to play a sax, with all the advice there is to listen to! In the end, I think we all do our own style of what works, and you really can't transfer what you do into words that accurately capture what it is you do, to get the tone you get. We don't share the same mouth, so in the end, you have to learn to use the mouth you have.
 
#16 ·
...you really can't transfer what you do into words that accurately capture what it is you do, to get the tone you get.
Exactly, which is what I mean when I say 'use your ear.' You have to be guided by what you hear.

Some general principals can be stated (fill the horn with air, use good air support, keep a relaxed but firm embouchure, etc), but as we've seen here, such statements are subject to interpretation or misinterpretation...
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top