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Outside playing?

2K views 26 replies 7 participants last post by  Pete Thomas 
#1 ·
Hello! I have seen over many transcriptions on the web solo of many players that over specific chord they play outside the chord series of a song like using tritone substitition.I have seen a specific technique (or i think it is) were it happens something like this.

We have for example : D-7b5 G7#9 / C7 Bb7 / and at the first meter they use a Cmajor scale(one of its modes) or F major(one of its modes) and resolving to C7 and Bb7.
Is this another usual type of outside playing?
Thanks! sorry for my bad english.
 
#2 ·
I'm not totally sure the example you are listing falls under the category of outside playing. But my theory is not the best.

To me, the example you are talking about is more of a premeditated resolution that has some of the notes in the next two chords played in the changes before.

More a voice leading thing.

This is not exactly what one would call "outside playing" which to me is deliberately playing in another key in contrast to the key that is already in everyone's mind.

I listened to your youtube to get some context. And say for example of Autumn leaves. When the turnaround comes in the A section leading into the Bridge there's prime spot to play triads and then shift up in half steps and move through the sequence until you land on a sympathetic note. Even the turnaround at the end of the first A section.

To me playing outside consists of a lot of patterns and sequences. Running through a particular pattern and sequence until you resolve or the tune does it for you.

1-2-3-5 in the circle of fourths in a Rhythm changes A section gains a lot of millage especially if you can time it that you flow into the B section where it then starts to run through the circle in the tune at a slower phrase speed.

I often find playing outside is a very subtle quick way of adding some colour to a solo and is specifically not about getting inside the changes of the tune (unless your'e really slick in which case you can make those outside phrases weave perfectly amongst fast moving chords).

Listen to some Kenny Garrett with Miles Davis. He will often play a note or a phrase a half step out of the key and then quickly return to the original key.

I'm coming from a funky background though. Again, theory is not my strongest attribute. But I enjoy playing outside phrases a lot. It's a cool topic.

There's lot's of sequences that are pretty standard. Playing a phrase moving in half steps, whole steps, minor thirds, major thirds, fourths. Even more patterns obviously.

Coltrane and Brecker did a lot with patterns moving in thirds.
 
#3 ·
That's not really playing outside. Sounds like you're trying to talk about playing chord scales, but in the first bar of your example, that's not gonna work too well unless you add notes. The D dorian scale you mention for D-7b5 needs the lowered 5th to go over your chord. You can ignore the #9 in the G7 to just play G mixolydian, though. Then you'd use C mixolydian on C7 and Bb Mixolydian on Bb. However, that approach is ignoring the larger harmonic context of the tune.

Assuming this is a loop, the tune is in C with b7 in the key. So you'd approach the first 2 chords like a minor ii-7 V7, resolve to C, but then treat Bb7 differently, playing a scale built around the chord tones, with the passing tones coming from the key of C: Bb C D E F G Ab Bb (lydian b7). All that is very INSIDE the chord changes, but that needs to be understood before playing outside. Alternatively, you can construct your phrases around the chord tones and not worry about the scales.

There are many ways of playing outside. From a purely melodic standpoint, applying atonal melodies creates an "out" sound. For instance, playing around the cycle of 5ths consecutively will create alternating tension and release by leaving the key and returning to it.

From a harmonic standpoint, playing outside can be done in a staggering variety of ways, but they generally come down to: A) a specific chord substitution that you know works well and sounds good over a different chord, B) choosing a chord which provides tension differently from the original chord before resolving to the original chord of resolution or C) playing through a harmonic cycle (half steps, 4ths, 5ths, 3rds, etc.) or harmonic pattern (e.g., Coltrane changes).

Using your example, playing outside using option A might sound like: F-7 Bb7#9 / C7 Bb+7 /
Option B might sound like: D-7b5 Db7 / C7 Bdim
Option C might sound like: Bb-6 F-6 / C7 AbMaj7 EMaj7 C7 /
Etc.

Basically, start looking for things which rub against the chord changes when you hear them, figure out what's going on, and if you like the sound, practice it and add it to your arsenal.
 
#8 ·
Hello DanPerezSax and littlewailer . Thank you for your important imformation. Am importing the photos of that licks i was asking about.
View attachment 108081 View attachment 108089
That's basically exactly what I said it would be. It ignores the b5 on the min7b5 chord and the #9 on the G7. It's not "out," it's just not clearly playing the changes that are there. That can be fine if you're ripping through at a fast speed or if you do it with the right attitude. From an academic perspective, learning how to play "correctly," though, it's wrong.

I never play outside. I'm in Texas and my blood is HOT. I need air condition.
I live at the beach so playing outside means salt air and sun.
Kyuk kyuk
 
#5 ·
Yeah, that's almost exactly like I had thought you were talking about.

Those are more examples of using target notes that are in the next part of the phrase to make the resolution sound very strong.

Where as outside playing has more to do with straying from the overall harmony (key) the tune is in and then coming back to it.
 
#12 ·
Constadinr, I suspect you are reacting to seeing notes that are not chord tones and/or are altered chord tones and/or chromatic tones that simply act to fill in (passing tones) between chord tones, or leading tones, enclosures, etc. Keep in mind the chord tones are mainly 'targets' and a lot of other notes can be used between those chord tones.

Whereas playing outside involves going completely out of key, things like sidestepping a half tone away from the key and playing patterns that eventually resolve back to the tonic key.
 
#24 ·
The Major 3rd is a fantastic color tone over minor chords if you play it with the right attitude. Brecker used it a LOT with the Brecker brothers. Very bluesey sound, and opens up some cool blues scale modes, even when used over a minor tonality, where it's usually major.

Here it is used in the head at :33 used as a color tone, then again at :42 as a passing tone leading to the 3rd of a VII/i- hybrid which is cool as hell.


Here's it's a neighbor tone at 1:13, etc.
 
#25 ·
Yeah Dan, but as your examples illustrate, it has to be used in the 'right' place at the 'right' time. My favorite color tone in a minor key is the maj 7th. The maj 7th isn't as risky as a maj 3rd over minor. The 9th is really beautiful too, but not a dissonant note. The ear will tell you...
 
#27 ·
I'd say a major 7 with a min7 chord is a different kettle of fish, I would use that quite often it can sound good (but not always of course).

However I stand by what I said about a major 3rd with a minor chord. Obviously in contexts such as passing notes and neighbour notes it is fine, but in so many cases when used as more significant (for want of a better word) note in the melody which is then I think there are way more instances of it sounding bad than there are of it working well. For example when sustained or used on a strong beat.
 
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