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Is this double tonguing or what? (Rahsaan Roland Kirk)

3K views 13 replies 11 participants last post by  JL 
#1 ·
Hello. For some reason and perhaps wrongly I have thought Rahsaan Roland Kirk isn't my cup of tea, but just stumbled on this amazing piece "Theme for the Eulipions". Damn fine piece of music!

His technique at 6:04 - 6:11 is interesting. Tried to imitate this effect and best I came up was some alternating throat-tongue action ("takatakataka" double tonguing type of thing). My best wasn't very good though and didn't sound quite right, haha! But I'm not very good player so there's that. Anyway, I'm curious is there perhaps something else going on here?

 
#13 ·
That's one I never heard before. Definitely is not double or triple-tonguing which usually is much more staccatto - must be the 'swipe-tongue' as Pete offered. On second thought, I guess I have heard it before by Boots Randolph as he tongued every note in a 32nd note ascending glissando on a slow ballad in a legato style, not sharply attacked at all. The problem is coordinating this with your fingers, which Roland didn't do so well but he made his point.
Yes, I think Boots could do what Pete and 1saxman are describing and what I heard in the Kirk audio. In his book Rock and Roll Sax, I think I remember he called it "flutter tongue", quickly flicking the tip of the tongue across the tip of the reed. I think of it as kinda like rolling your R's with your tongue across the tip of the reed and mouthpiece perhaps? Not that I can do it, but it's a pretty cool effect when Boots does it!

@1saxman - and now ya got me trying to remember which song I last heard Boots do it. I know it was on his last album/CD, Whole New Ballgame, just can't remember the ballad... at the end of Round Midnight, iirc! (but don't quote me on that, yet!)
 
#3 ·
That's one I never heard before. Definitely is not double or triple-tonguing which usually is much more staccatto - must be the 'swipe-tongue' as Pete offered. On second thought, I guess I have heard it before by Boots Randolph as he tongued every note in a 32nd note ascending glissando on a slow ballad in a legato style, not sharply attacked at all. The problem is coordinating this with your fingers, which Roland didn't do so well but he made his point.
 
#5 ·
It sounds like rapid double tonguing to me, but what do I know compared to guys like Pete? I have to try that to see if I can do it that fast and not sound like crap.
 
#9 ·
Hello. For some reason and perhaps wrongly I have thought Rahsaan Roland Kirk isn't my cup of tea, but just stumbled on this amazing piece "Theme for the Eulipions". Damn fine piece of music!
Roland Kirk was one of those players you really had to see/hear in live performance! Unfortunately that's no longer possible, of course. I saw him playing live many times and it was always an earthshaking experience. The recordings don't come anywhere close, although that clip in the OP is one of his finest recordings.
 
#12 ·
Hello. For some reason and perhaps wrongly I have thought Rahsaan Roland Kirk isn't my cup of tea, but just stumbled on this amazing piece "Theme for the Eulipions". Damn fine piece of music!

Rahsaan is one of my lifelong musical heroes. There is a kind of "freedom" in his playing that you hardly ever hear. Like, he might just play absolutely any damn thing that comes into his head at any instant. And take off on a tangent from it that lasts who knows how long. And sound fantastic doing it.

To get started on a Rahsaan adventure I recommend three albums for the novice:

- Rahsaan Roland Kirk and Al Hibbler, A Meeting of the Times
- Other Folks' Music
- The Case of the Three Sided Dream in Audio Color.

All three of these are available on YouTuba either as complete albums or track by track.

Bright Moments to ya.
 
#14 ·
"Flutter tonguing" is a similar effect, but the tongue does not touch the reed. It's like rolling your 'Rs', interrupting the air stream, resulting in a motor boating effect. Similar to, but not the same as, a growl. I never touch the reed when doing this. Of course it's just a matter of semantics in terms of what term you call it. It might be possible that Rahsaan was using a slow flutter tongue? I'll have to experiment with this when I pick up the horn today.

- Rahsaan Roland Kirk and Al Hibbler, A Meeting of the Times
- Other Folks' Music
- The Case of the Three Sided Dream in Audio Color.

All three of these are available on YouTuba either as complete albums or track by track.

Bright Moments to ya.
Rahsaan also played some great solos on some Charles Mingus recordings (and everything by Mingus is well worth checking out!).
 
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