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American Professional alto sax has been in the family for how long?

6K views 9 replies 6 participants last post by  milandro 
#1 ·
According to the oral history in my family, my stepson is the fourth generation to play an American Professional alto sax. My brother played it, my mother played it, and according to my mother's brother, their mother played it.

The serial number is three lines
A
15513
L

Because of the age of this saxophone, the keys are slightly different than his Selmer school saxophone. Thus my stepson prefers the Selmer. This is only his first year playing, so he has time to grow into the "older" sax.

It is interesting to compare the Selmer and the American Professional. The neck piece of the American Professional will NOT fit into the body of the Selmer. The Selmer neck piece won't seat properly on the American Professional body, the AP body is about a millimeter wider than the Selmer neckpiece (no I didn't take a pair of calipers--just used a pair of glasses).

Assuming the neck pieces are the same length, what does the extra diameter of the American Profession do for the tone of the instrument. Or does the fact that it appears to be silver plated change the tone more so than the diameter of the saxophone.

What can I do help him appreciate this older sax? Should I just wait until he has more playing time under his belt, and then he can discern the difference?

I have received a recommendation from a saxophone quartet in my town as to who would be the best local person to examine the instrument and recommend repairs. It's been in storage since the early 80s.

PS I will be posting pictures shortly.
PPS. I think I have the correct subforum for this post. If not please let me know.
 
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#2 ·
I'm not a specialist, but google is your friend.

Doing a quick search I found that it's a stencil (merchandiser-branded) horn made by Martin or Couturiere. The value isn't high.

See these links:
http://www.saxophone.org/forum/thread/id/22647/name/American+Professional+Alto+Sax
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...mething-about-quot-American-Professional-quot
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?163249-Lyon-Healy-American-Professional
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Resources/Stencils.html

Different brands often have different bore sizes. A wider bore normally gives a bit darker/full sound. The silver plating doesn't influence the sound, main sound characteristics come from internal dimension properties and tone hole placement and not from the outside finish (can of worms!).
 
#3 ·
According to the oral history in my family, my stepson is the fourth generation to play an American Professional alto sax. My brother played it, my mother played it, and according to my mother's brother, their mother played it.
That is really nice to have something in the family that long.

The serial number is three lines
A
15513
L

Because of the age of this saxophone, the keys are slightly different than his Selmer school saxophone. Thus my stepson prefers the Selmer. This is only his first year playing, so he has time to grow into the "older" sax.
If it is old enough to have 2 octave keys, that will not be a good sax to learn on. I would guess that his school "selmer" is probably a student model (not the famous pro horns). If it is one made in the last 15 years or so, it will be much more comfortable and fit his hands better than a sax made in the 1920s. It should also play better in tune.

It is interesting to compare the Selmer and the American Professional. The neck piece of the American Professional will NOT fit into the body of the Selmer. The Selmer neck piece won't seat properly on the American Professional body, the AP body is about a millimeter wider than the Selmer neckpiece (no I didn't take a pair of calipers--just used a pair of glasses). Assuming the neck pieces are the same length, what does the extra diameter of the American Profession do for the tone of the instrument? Or does the fact that it appears to be silver plated change the tone more so than the diameter of the saxophone.
What you are talking about is called the internal measurements or "bore" of the saxophone. These are often different sizes as each manufacturer have their own design. It is not unusual for a neck from one manufacturer to be incompatible with a body from another. Silver plating will change the tone very little or not at all.

"what does the extra diameter of the American Profession do for the tone of the instrument?"
this would take many pages to answer.

What can I do help him appreciate this older sax? Should I just wait until he has more playing time under his belt, and then he can discern the difference?
Yes, and don't be surprised if he doesn't appreciate it. I appreciate vintage saxophones very much, but when it comes time to make a living, I almost always grab a modern horn.

I have received a recommendation from a saxophone quartet in my town as to who would be the best local person to examine the instrument and recommend repairs. It's been in storage since the early 80s.
Before paying for any repairs, i would see if one of the sax quartet members can toot a a few notes on the sax in question. They may tell you it is a wonderful instrument worth restoring. Sadly, many an old saxophone is better left as an heirloom wall-hanger.

PS I will be posting pictures shortly. PPS. I think I have the correct subforum for this post. If not please let me know.
 
#6 ·
well, not of course, because there were several brands with mercedes benz keyguard, but it might be a Conn.

Incidentally, this brand has been spoken about before (as almost anything!)

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?213608-Is-this-really-a-Conn-saxophone

The most qualified person to identify this horn is our member Laporte who is an expert of these horns,

I am glad to see that the existence of the Couturier saxophone is no longer a matter in question.

When the Moers-Festival is over (last evening The Sun Ra Arkestra gave a great concert conducted by the 90 years old Allan Marshal) I'd like to add a trivia on comparing Couturier saxophones with other brands.
Bruce is right.

Although most of us ( I did too) have grown to think that Martin was the only company which made saxophones with bevelled toneholes this is far from true.

Several brands ( Early Buescher, King, Keilwerth New Kings II, Couturiers which include some Lyon and Healey, Couesnon, all appear to have had bevelled toneholes at some stage and while most abandoned them, Martin appears to have been carrying on with this feature until the end.

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?207858-Unique-Martin-Key-Guards
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?191851-Beveled-tone-holes

Also " American Professional" have been discussed before (and at that time of the first of these threads, but not the second or third, Bruce seemed to think it was a Martin too)

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...mething-about-quot-American-Professional-quot
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?163249-Lyon-Healy-American-Professional
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?37334-American-Professional-Alto
 
#8 ·
not at all,

please follow that thread (and the links, why do I even bother to link things if nobody ever follows them I do wonder) about the same brand and the same discussion whether it was a Conn or not.

These are Lyon & Healey Couturier made saxophones

You and Bruce seem to be typing to the wind. Perhaps these matters are only settled with LaPorte's input. I'm sorry I got here late. I too remember the old threads that stumped many here until LaPorte pointed us in the right (Couturier) direction.
 
#9 ·
Four companies are known to have made stencil saxophones for Lyon & Healy: Couturier, Martin, Buescher and Conn. Conn used the Mercedes low C key guard.

We don't know which company made this one because we haven't yet seen photos of it. So until we do, milandro, my friend, please quit your confounded nitpicking.
 
#10 ·
We do know,

NOT nitpicking, just documented information.

Contrary to guessing, Laporte has told us before, these are couturier made saxophones, and Laporte is an expert in these often misidentified saxophones.

LaPorte has given us much wisdom about these saxophones.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?113311-The-Forgotten-American-Manufacturer

'American Professional' was a trademark or second line of Lyon&Healy. Prior to purchasing the LaPorte plant saxophones marked 'Lyon&Healy' and additionally 'AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL' are made by Buescher , some (late 1923) made by Couturier. Currently there are two examples on ebay:

An early C melody with soldered tonholes #31989

http://cgi.ebay.com/LYON-HEALY-AMER...ultDomain_0?hash=item3357518ec8#ht_500wt_1182

and a C 'medley' #119698

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Lyon-He...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20ae0d0933

both made by Buescher.

After purchasing the Couturier Co. (and an interruption) Lyon&Healy continued the 'AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL' line lacking the 'Lyon&Healy' engraving usually using a C-keyguard in T-shape instead of the Y shaped keyguard used on their first line. Both lines were made in LaPorte and are essentially identical. The factory name 'Couturier Band Instrument Company' under the new leadership of L&H was uphold for the moment.

That's correct. The 'Made By' on Couturier saxophones tells the truth: Made by Couturier. Couturier saxophones stencilled by other companies and those made by Lyon&Healy can be identified according to my post #68 this thread.

Prior to moving the Couturier company from Elkhart to LaPorte October 1918 there had been Conn saxophones, stencilled 'Couturier LTD'. In LaPorte no saxophones were sold until ca. August 1922, when Couturier started his own saxophone production.

Right.

I agree.:)

Well observed. Your C melody was made by Lyon&Healy in the Couturier factory most probably 1924/1925.

If the engraving says both 'Lyon&Healy' and 'American Professional' it was made by Couturier during receivership October 1923 and march 1924. November and December 1923 the factory was closed. And you really sold a genuine Couturier saxophone without having it played? (Otherwise you wouldn't have it sold ;)).

I've never seen a Martin with a 'Conn' style low C keyguard. The keyguard is no reliable feature as Couturier saxophones have either an Y or a T style C-keyguard. All the same the combination of bevelled tonholes and an Y style C keyguard may arouse suspicion.;)

An early 'C.G Conn' alto I saw on ebay that had soldered and bevelled toneholes! I missed to save the pictures.

I came across five different manufacturers which used Y-style (Mercedes style) C keyguards at some time. There are probably more. Yesterday I met Gerhard Julius Keilwerth, grandchild of the saxophone manufacturer Julius Keilwerth. He told me how manufacturers exchanged keyguards and other features in order to give a certain impression to the customer. I do know e.g. that 1926 Lyon&Healy sold the whole line of their 'Artist Model' with a Mercedes style C-keyguard (all made in their LaPorte plant) except the baritone which was made by Conn. That Conn made baritone was equipped with a T-shaped C keyguard! And my Conn made L&H 'Trojan' alto has a T shaped C keyguard, too! There may be many Trojan horses out there. A keyguard could easily be exchanged and they did.

I've listed the most important (those found on all Couturier saxophones)
in post #68 this thread. There are some more which can be found on certain models, like mentioned by Walter Webb.

Thank you for your thoughtful questiones, spiderjames!:)
On request I bring forward following matter:

How to identify a LaPorte made saxophone.

All following statements are based on my own examinations and researches.

I recommend not to rely on one feature alone as there are similiarities which can be found on saxophones of different manufacturers as well as differences which easily could be changed e.g. keyguards. Note that there are some positive related features but also features which exclude a LaPorte origin.

And of course there are features that can be identified on good photos but there are some - and that are the most reliable - which requires the real object of examination e.g. measurements of the body!

All LaPorte made saxophones

1. have split bell keys except straight sopranos.

2. are lacking front F.

3. have thick simple bevelled toneholes (handcrafted, therefore slightly varying in shape) soldered onto the body. I call them „LaPorte Type" as most saxophones made since 1922 equipped with this type of bevelled toneholes were produced in LaPorte. Saxophones produced at the same time (twenties) by Martin have thick bevelled toneholes, too. But unlike those made in Laporte they have usually an inward sloping rim.

What makes things more complicated: Martin saxophones made between 1918 and ca.1921 and some stencils are lacking this feature, they look like the LaPorte type ones! So not all saxophones with 'LaPorte Type' toneholes are made in LaPorte! Vice versa: Saxophones with toneholes other than 'LaPorte Type' are not made in LaPorte.

4. have serial numbers in the range of 6,xxx and 19,xxx as well as 200,xxx and 203,xxx (except Holton Collegiate I which are not considered here). Possibly there are very rare exceptions. Still researching.

5. All numbers are written in a straight line e.g. with an „A" above for alto saxophone and an „L" beneath for „Low Pitch". There never can be found the term „LOW PITCH" like stamped on Martin made saxophones. Since 1926 (1925 on the 'Perfect Curved Soprano') "PAT APPLD FOR" was supplemented.

6. LaPorte made saxophone bodies are larger bored than any other contemporary make. Trying (e.g.) to fix a martin neck on a LaPorte saxophone, you will be very surprised how much the difference in diameter is!

7. LaPorte made saxophone bodies (comparing examinations on numerous alto saxophones) are longer than any other make. Accordingly their necks are shorter (otherwise they would have a pitch which is much too low).

There are more indications which I will explain when presenting some info about model history.

Felix
 
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