Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

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    Default Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Hey all,

    I was wondering what you all (Especially those of you who already have extensive experience with modifying mouthpieces) believe the best way to raise a baffle on a stainless steel Berg is? The best way I can think of is to create an insert out of poster putty, and then use that as a guide to create one out of wood and glue it in place. Or perhaps use plumber's epoxy, but I get the feeling that plumber's epoxy would be a terrible idea, since any little error would be permanently stuck in there (In my mind I see a big glob of the stuff lodged into the bullet chamber portion of the baffle...).

    Any thoughts?

    Craig

    Edit: Whoops, I didn't realize I posted this in the "tenor mpcs" forum instead of the "mouthpiece modification/maintenance" forum. Sorry about that, administrators!
    I can't stand the amount of emphasis most people place on the "tradition" of jazz. The history of jazz was written by cats who relentlessly pushed the boundaries. Do you know what I call people who only try to play what Bird or Trane already did? Classical musicians.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    you are on the right track. google search 'mouthpiece epoxy baffle' and you will find lots of information on how to go about it, including some old entries in this forum and youtube videos.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Quote Originally Posted by craigmultireedguy View Post
    Edit: Whoops, I didn't realize I posted this in the "tenor mpcs" forum instead of the "mouthpiece modification/maintenance" forum. Sorry about that, administrators!
    I moved your thread to the correct part of the forum.

    About your question: I think Mojo (Keith Bradbury) has some nice clips on YouTube about what you're looking for.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Quote Originally Posted by craigmultireedguy View Post
    I was wondering what you all (Especially those of you who already have extensive experience with modifying mouthpieces) believe the best way to raise a baffle on a stainless steel Berg is? The best way I can think of is to create an insert out of poster putty, and then use that as a guide to create one out of wood and glue it in place. Or perhaps use plumber's epoxy, but I get the feeling that plumber's epoxy would be a terrible idea, since any little error would be permanently stuck in there (In my mind I see a big glob of the stuff lodged into the bullet chamber portion of the baffle...).
    I recall when I first met Fred Lamberson 30+ years ago, he had mouthpieces all over a bench top on his back porch, and just about every one of them had a baffle of putty in them. Clearly, he was figuring out what made mouthpieces work. If you look at Barone pieces from his early days, hot-rodded Links from Van Wie, or even Coelho high baffle pieces now, all of them have baffles built up with epoxy, then finished to final shape.

    As Guto says, you're on the right path.
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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr G View Post
    I recall when I first met Fred Lamberson 30+ years ago, he had mouthpieces all over a bench top on his back porch, and just about every one of them had a baffle of putty in them. Clearly, he was figuring out what made mouthpieces work. If you look at Barone pieces from his early days, hot-rodded Links from Van Wie, or even Coelho high baffle pieces now, all of them have baffles built up with epoxy, then finished to final shape.
    ...Or the original version of the Phil-Tone Rift!

    Anyway, thanks for the reassuring words, all of you.
    I can't stand the amount of emphasis most people place on the "tradition" of jazz. The history of jazz was written by cats who relentlessly pushed the boundaries. Do you know what I call people who only try to play what Bird or Trane already did? Classical musicians.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Plumbers epoxy is only semi-permanent. It could be chipped and ground out with the right tools. You do need to work fast since they typically get too hard to shape after 3-4 minutes. But they can be filed and sanded after they set.

    I feel plumbers epoxy has a little "give" to it so it stays in metal mouthpieces better than other epoxies over time. Thermal expansion cycles often dislodge other epoxies after a few years.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    +1 to Mojo.


    When I put a baffle in my NY link I just bought the 2 part quick set Gorilla epoxy at the store.

    It worked really well. And it could be pried out and thrown in the trash if I wanted to try again. It took about 4 tries until I got the shape I wanted (add more than you think you need and then you can sand it down after.)

    I was told there is less toxic stuff you can buy but I never noticed any troubles. I'm still alive.
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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Thanks for the info! I'll keep that in mind for future reference.

    I decided that I definitely want a bit of baffle added to my stainless steel Berg, just to give its sound some more energy and liveliness. Since great stainless steel Bergs are pretty hard to come by since they're so inconsistent from the factory these days and it seems like almost no one is willing to do facing work on them for a reasonable price, I think this particular Berg deserves the best. I decided to send it to Erik Greiffenhagen of the Mouthpiece Guys. He worked miracles on my hard rubber one, back in the day. We'll see how that turns out (A lot of uncertainty when it comes to mouthpiece work), but I'm excited!
    I can't stand the amount of emphasis most people place on the "tradition" of jazz. The history of jazz was written by cats who relentlessly pushed the boundaries. Do you know what I call people who only try to play what Bird or Trane already did? Classical musicians.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Quote Originally Posted by littlewailer View Post
    I was told there is less toxic stuff you can buy but I never noticed any troubles. I'm still alive.
    Haha, I'm glad!
    I can't stand the amount of emphasis most people place on the "tradition" of jazz. The history of jazz was written by cats who relentlessly pushed the boundaries. Do you know what I call people who only try to play what Bird or Trane already did? Classical musicians.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Quote Originally Posted by craigmultireedguy View Post
    Hey all,

    I was wondering what you all (Especially those of you who already have extensive experience with modifying mouthpieces) believe the best way to raise a baffle on a stainless steel Berg is? The best way I can think of is to create an insert out of poster putty, and then use that as a guide to create one out of wood and glue it in place. Or perhaps use plumber's epoxy, but I get the feeling that plumber's epoxy would be a terrible idea, since any little error would be permanently stuck in there (In my mind I see a big glob of the stuff lodged into the bullet chamber portion of the baffle...).

    Any thoughts?

    Craig

    Edit: Whoops, I didn't realize I posted this in the "tenor mpcs" forum instead of the "mouthpiece modification/maintenance" forum. Sorry about that, administrators!
    By opening the mouthpiece from the tip will raise the angle of the baffle behind the tip rail. Once you've re-shaped the tip rail, you can control better the profile angle of the baffle much the same as you when you reface any other sort of piece.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastian View Post
    By opening the mouthpiece from the tip will raise the angle of the baffle behind the tip rail. Once you've re-shaped the tip rail, you can control better the profile angle of the baffle much the same as you when you reface any other sort of piece.
    That's really interesting, and makes a lot of sense! It's especially interesting given the common thought that larger tips with identical baffle and chamber designs sound darker due to the internal space between the baffle and the resting point of the reed being greater.
    I can't stand the amount of emphasis most people place on the "tradition" of jazz. The history of jazz was written by cats who relentlessly pushed the boundaries. Do you know what I call people who only try to play what Bird or Trane already did? Classical musicians.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    If you're putting a clay or putty baffle in, try Apoxie modeling clay. Great stuff. It is non-toxic, cleans up with water, and doesn't fully cure for like 24 hours. So you have plenty of time to adjust it after the baffle is inserted. It also sands and accepts filing very well. When it cures, though, you better be sure you want it in there because it will be hard as a rock. I love using this stuff for biteplate repairs because of all the reasons listed above, plus the fact that after you file and sand it to shape you can buff it at high rates like 3600rpm with an 8" buffing wheel and it doesn't melt like hard rubber and plastic/acrylic biteplates do.

    Also, as Sebastian said, you can open it... But that's easier said than done on a stainless steel piece. I've done it a bunch fo times but it's a lot more work than brass.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Sugru would be good for this, I bet. Either that or buy a 0 instead of a 2.
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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Exactly! It's the reason why some players who play open sizes prefer a higher baffle piece or at least something with proportionally more.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdlives1955 View Post
    If you're putting a clay or putty baffle in, try Apoxie modeling clay. Great stuff. It is non-toxic, cleans up with water, and doesn't fully cure for like 24 hours. So you have plenty of time to adjust it after the baffle is inserted. It also sands and accepts filing very well. When it cures, though, you better be sure you want it in there because it will be hard as a rock. I love using this stuff for biteplate repairs because of all the reasons listed above, plus the fact that after you file and sand it to shape you can buff it at high rates like 3600rpm with an 8" buffing wheel and it doesn't melt like hard rubber and plastic/acrylic biteplates do.

    Also, as Sebastian said, you can open it... But that's easier said than done on a stainless steel piece. I've done it a bunch fo times but it's a lot more work than brass.
    I use Apoxie mostly for baffles in hard rubber mouthpieces. I like the black look when finished. I also use it for metal chamber and throat work when I need a putty with a slow set time. For a simple baffle in metal, I prefer fast set plumbers epoxy putty.

    Apoxie is easy to file and sand but it does foul up your files and sandpaper. You need a file card to keep cleaning out the gummy dust.

    It can be used for bite repairs if the player uses a patch over the repair. Otherwise, I find that it does not set as hard as the original hard rubber or acrylic bite plate. So if the player has sharp teeth that created a worn spot in the first place, they will chew through uncovered Apoxie pretty fast IMO. Acrylic repair material sets harder than Apoxie. So does JB Weld, but I would not use that for bite area repairs either.

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    This is the stuff ! https://www.milliput.com/

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    Default Re: Hypothetically speaking: What is the best way to raise the baffle on a Berg Larsen stainless steel 2 chamber?

    Apoxie is a good product

    As for the Rift...yes, I used that for a while.

    As much as I liked the piece I never did very much to market the original because frankly, I hated making it.

    Negotiating the primary baffle with the front step/rollover was a PIA. Finally I put up the dough to have a mold made that keeps the big rear baffle consistent as well as pre-existing. This leaves only the work on the tip to be done.

    You are on the right track.

    One note in terms of design: In most cases you are best to keep the baffle below the line of sight when viewing from the tip to the bore. If it gets too high it creates unnecessary resistance.
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