The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?) - Page 2

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  1. #21
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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    SteveS.: Shades of Woody Allen's SLEEPER.

    Obviously, the maker of this contraption put some time into assembling it. But the video presentation was SO hokey and contrived (the body movements and expressions of "soul") that I found it a complete turn-off.

    And I still haven't settled on the value of a "blues scale" instrument. Like posted above - maybe for a circus act by some far-out R&R actor (I won't say performer), but otherwise . . . why? Probably just because he could . . .DAVE
    Dave

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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    not the first time that someone thought of something like that and in the end it never materialized, you don’t even need to make the whole body, you could use an existing saxophone to simply make the electromechanical part .


    https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...rument-keywork



    acquiring the 3D data from any saxophone would bypass the hurdle that you seem to think is the main one the design of the toneholes. 3D printing is the logical means to carry out such a projet nowadays.

    But the real question is why? What would an electromechanical saxophone do that a traditional sax can’t? Someone in that thread suggests such a sax would be usable by people with one hand only , but there are already things like that completely mechanical and adding 25 servomotors wouldn’t make a sax smaller, cheaper or easier to make than an mechanical one.

    That “ project" never went anywhere.

    An electromechanical saxophone would have advantages because it would be possible
    -to have more than two octave holes in a practical way (a mechanical implementation is really complicated and the Buffet Powell was not very satisfying in this respect)
    -to really fulfill the Boehm ideal (no closed pad below the first open one) -and this would iron some of the acoustic compromises in the design of the saxophone
    -to give more flexibility for the altissimo (for example, some altissimo fingerings are only possible on an old sax with two octave keys, because with the modern automatic octave key when you press G you automatically switch to the body octave key; a mapping of the fingerings with a computer would allow more flexibility).

  4. #23
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    Well, you are welcome to make your move in the world of saxophone advancement.

    Next to Vibratosax and Jim Schmidt there aren’t any other innovators who made a final product , so there is plenty of scope
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    But the real question is why? What would an electromechanical saxophone do that a traditional sax can’t?
    The real answer would be for the joy of designing and making things, and learning DIY contraptions in my mind are their own thing, not meant to compete with traditional instruments in business or in any other ways.

    The benefits of electromechanical operation would be freedom in design and scale - no need to create complex rod systems, bent tubes and other compromises to accommodate operation by ten fingers. Pads could maybe be designed to not have the elevated tone hole chimneys like a sax (making the tube a more pure cone shape), every single note could have it's own tone hole of ideal size, and the range could maybe be extended above that of a normal sax, without register trickery (the thing could be huge). That would make it more interesting than just slapping an electromechanical keywork to an existing sax tube.

    I'm sure even with 50 toneholes and servos or other actuators, as a DIY project not commercial prototype, it would be significantly cheaper than an average bass sax (10k-15k euro I think).
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  6. #25
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    Knock yourself out then! The other “ project” started the same way and as far as we know went nowhere.

    As any “ invention” is not about who makes but who buys it and i don’t think there is enough market or any market for a thing like this, funding it would also be very tricky. But the long winter in Finland has to be filled by some activity and might as well be this.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by raindog View Post
    The real answer would be for the joy of designing and making things, and learning DIY contraptions in my mind are their own thing, not meant to compete with traditional instruments in business or in any other ways.

    The benefits of electromechanical operation would be freedom in design and scale - no need to create complex rod systems, bent tubes and other compromises to accommodate operation by ten fingers. Pads could maybe be designed to not have the elevated tone hole chimneys like a sax (making the tube a more pure cone shape), every single note could have it's own tone hole of ideal size, and the range could maybe be extended above that of a normal sax, without register trickery (the thing could be huge). That would make it more interesting than just slapping an electromechanical keywork to an existing sax tube.

    I'm sure even with 50 toneholes and servos or other actuators, as a DIY project not commercial prototype, it would be significantly cheaper than an average bass sax (10k-15k euro I think).

    I'm completely convinced that an electromechanical keywork would give more freedom to the designers to implement better acoustic solutions. However, I don't believe that the chimneys could be shortened (Benade made an experiment with short chimneys and claims that they are not a good idea). What could be done to obtain a better cone shape would be getting rid of unnecessary tone holes (for example, side C or alt F#), which would be allowed by electromechanical activators
    Also, I don't believe that the saxophone could dispense with register keys: short tube notes are problematic (emission, tone).

    And of course (to Milandro) I don't have the financial means nor the technical expertise to start a compagny producing this "revolutionnary saxophone".

  8. #27
    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alain Gen View Post
    What could be done to obtain a better cone shape would be getting rid of unnecessary tone holes (for example, side C or alt F#), which would be allowed by electromechanical activators
    To me this is could be huge reason to research this. On the other hand it is arguable that "better cone shape" technically would not necessarily translate into better sound and/or response from a player's perspective. It would certainly be useful from a marketing POV as an innovation, and may well make a huge difference to the sound that some people may like and others may not.
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  9. #28
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    I am sure it will cost then an arm an a leg to make and buy an electromechanic saxophone and doing this in a shrinking market.


    I am also sure that even a working prototype would drain the inventor with sums in excess of $100,000 to realize a functional product.

    As the late SOTW member Ballad Kid ( Mr.Armando Conti who had a very famous business in ultra high quality hi-fi turntables and other such special things)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ballad Kid View Post
    And speaking as a product designer who also has to implement the designs, those other projects are a walk in the park compared to a practical version of this electro-mechanical instrument.




    This could only be done with the back-up of an university like the UNSW which actually has a special grants projects for postgraduate projects such as the one needed for the task.



    Several companies invested (and never made a lot of money) in electronic wind controllers but nobody made an electromechanical saxophone. I suppose there is a very good reason for this.

    As for acoustics improvement and electronics only Yamaha and KGS-Jupiter have the company size and money to back up acoustic research and they don’t seem to be interested in doing this.




    Again, as you probably have learned from the failing to interest investors in a saxophonic project (way less adventurous than an electromechanic saxophone ) Hanson when he participated in Dragon’s den, investors are not keen to invest in a market like this.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

  10. #29
    Distinguished SOTW Member rhysonsax's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    How about an electro-mechanical saxophone with a separate cone for each register ? That would get rid of any compromises with octave holes and tuning between octaves. But it would probably mean that you couldn't have a single mouthpiece: maybe it could be combined with an air source and an artificial embouchure (like Ed Pillinger made for his research).

    Or would that just turn it into an organ ?

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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by rhysonsax View Post
    How about an electro-mechanical saxophone with a separate cone for each register ? That would get rid of any compromises with octave holes and tuning between octaves. But it would probably mean that you couldn't have a single mouthpiece: maybe it could be combined with an air source and an artificial embouchure (like Ed Pillinger made for his research).

    Or would that just turn it into an organ ?

    Rhys
    An organ would be if there was a separate pipe for each note.

  12. #31
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    the reason why saxophones only had minor upgrades since their beginnings is that the secret of their success lays with being the ideal compromise between relative low complication while being of a relative simple making let alone repairing.

    Can you imagine having all the parts of a electromechanical intrument working together, what would this look like? Ginormous, its weight, complication to keep it in working state and can you imagine how long would take to service any such thing?

    And what for? Do we have any real problem to play the instrument as it is?

    A solution to a non existing problem.

    The robotic saxophone ( true that one has other additional constructional problems that make it even more complicated) which was realized to test without the intervention of humans all sorts of things ( and has failed to deliver a research instrument to date) is hardly a portable instrument.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

  13. #32
    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The RAV plastic BLUES (ONLY?) tenorsax (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by rhysonsax View Post
    How about an electro-mechanical saxophone with a separate cone for each register ?
    Well, here's a start:

    Click image for larger version. 

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