Keilwerth counterfeit?

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  1. #1
    noesax's Avatar
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    Default Keilwerth counterfeit?

    I was looking at a Keilwerth SX90 soprano this week, and I noticed two odd things. First, Made In Germany is not stamped above the serial number. Second, the crown logo has a cross inside it instead of the ace of spades shape that appears on my eight Keilwerths, including two made the same year as this soprano. Otherwise, the sax has all the features one would expect, including adjustable palm keys. My assumption is this horn is either a counterfeit or is a SX 90 that wasn't made in Germany. The serial number dates it shortly before Keilwerth became insolvent, so perhaps it was actually made/finished in the Czech Republic. Anyone have an insight into this odd case?

    I did find a photo of an EX90 III model with the same crown engraving.

    SX90.jpg JK EX 90 III.jpg
    Last edited by noesax; 06-11-2017 at 05:40 PM.
    Keilwerth soprano, alto, tenor & baritone.

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  3. #2
    noesax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth counterfeit?

    The information I have found suggesting this horn might have been finished in the Czech Republic has not been substantiated. However, I am still curious whether anyone has encountered a counterfeit Keilwerth, and if so, what identifies it as such. I was surprised to learn how readily available counterfeit Selmers are.
    Last edited by noesax; 06-12-2017 at 08:40 AM.
    Keilwerth soprano, alto, tenor & baritone.

  4. #3
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth counterfeit?

    Your “ information” is incorrect, The SX was not assembled by amati some ST and some EX were.Never came across a fake Keilwerth and I have bought many.


    Quote Originally Posted by saxpiece View Post
    Alright. I tracked down photos of all the Keilwerth SX EX and ST different series and compared everything about them such as the body tubes, the keys etc etc.

    The conclusion I came to was that something was not quite right about the Amati and Keilwerth connection from what I have read.

    The ST-90 Series II and Series III has the same basic tube shape and key shapes and other things as the EX-90 Series II and Series III and the SX-90.

    But the ST-90 Series II and Series III and the EX90 series III are supposed to have been made by Amati from what I have read.

    Something doesn't add up here but I think I know what happened.

    The ST-90 Series II and Series III and the EX90 series III are made from Keilwerth parts manufactured in Germany and then transported to Amati for assembly and finishing.
    So Keilwerth gets the assembly and finishing done at a lower price and can then sell them at a lower price.

    So over time Keilwerth moved the assembly and finishing for the ST-90 and then the EX-90 to Amati and then finally subcontracted KHS/Jupiter to make the ST-90 Series IV.

    The ST-90 Series IV is made by KHS Jupiter in Taiwan ROC.

    Saxmaniax.com has this to say:

    Model Made in
    EX90 Germany
    EX90 II Germany
    EX90 III Czech Republic
    ST 90 I Germany
    ST 90 II and III Czech Republic
    ST 90 IV Taiwan (Jupiter)

    So the list above from Saxmaniax.com is what I also came up with by using photos of the different models and it seems to be pretty accurate except it seems to be this

    Model Made in
    EX90 Germany
    EX90 II Germany
    EX90 III Parts made in Germany. Assembly and finishing by Amati in Czech Republic
    ST 90 I Germany
    ST 90 II and III Parts made in Germany. Assembly and finishing by Amati in Czech Republic
    ST 90 IV Taiwan (Jupiter)

    All modern Keilwerth sax parts are currently made in Markneukirchen Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markneukirchen except for the ST90 series IV which is made by KHS/Jupiter.

    All Amati saxes are done at Kraslice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraslice in the Czech Republic.

    Kraslice and Markneukirchen are just up the road from each other so to speak.

    Originally, the ST90 series I and EX90 series I and II and the SX90 were totally made in Keilwerths Nauheim factory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauheim

    For the ST90 series II and III (before the opening of Keilwerths Markneukirchen Germany factory in 2001), Keilwerth shipped the parts from Keilwerths Nauheim factory to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

    Keilwerths Markneukirchen Germany factory opened in 2001 and for a time it appears that there were some parts coming from both the Keilwerths Nauheim factory and the Keilwerths Markneukirchen factory for the SX-90 and EX-90 series III and the EX-90 series III parts were then shipped to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

    From 2006, Keilwerths Nauheim factory is mainly just used for administration and Keilwerths Markneukirchen factory produces the SX-90 and the EX-90 series III parts which are shipped to Amati at Kraslice for assembly and finishing.

    The ST-90 series II appears around 1992 and the ST-90 series III appears around 1995 and the ST-90 series IV then goes to KHS/Jupiter sometime around the late 90s/early 2000s.

    The EX-90 series II appears around 1996? and the EX-90 series III appears around early 2000s.

    The ST-90 series II and III and the EX-90 series III are made from Keilwerth parts and assembled and finished by Amati and have Amati serial numbers.

    I had my Keilwerth ST90 series III serial number verified for the year of manufacture from Amati and the Amati chart below is pretty accurate.

    Here are Amati serial numbers that often start with a 3

    The following table is possible to estimate the age of Amati saxophone. Accuracy is approximately ± 2 years. And that's not so simple for the soprano saxophone is another table with an accuracy of ± 3.5 years.

    alto, tenor, baritone
    years serial numbers
    1945 - 1959 to 27,200
    1960 - 1964 to 55,500
    1965 - 1969 to 83,700
    1970 - 1974 to 112,000
    1975 - 1979 to 140,200
    1980 - 1984 to 168,500
    1985 - 1989 to 196,700
    1990 - 1994 to 326,700
    1995 - 1999 to 342,300
    2000 - 2004 to 358,000
    2005 - 2009 to 374000 (?)
    Soprano
    years serial numbers
    ? (1965) - 1979 to 5000
    1980 - 1989 in 8300
    1990 - 1999 to 11,500
    2000 - 2009 to 14,800



    Here are Keilwerth serial numbers that often start with a 1

    http://www.speakeasy.org/~granlund/k...h-serials.html

    1978: 79,000

    1986: 91,000

    1993. 99,100

    1998: 109,000
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

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  6. #4
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth counterfeit?

    there are all manners of horns misstamped or no stamped at all.

    look up the Mark VI with stamps upside down and no stamp at all.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member and Forum Contributor 2007 Morry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth counterfeit?

    The posts look different than I remember the ones on my SX90II looking. Just different vintage I suppose.
    JK SX90R Gold Lacquer over Nickel Alto
    JK SX90R Clear Lacquer Tenor
    Yamaha YBS-52 Bari

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  8. #6
    Distinguished SOTW Member and Forum Contributor 2007 Morry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth counterfeit?

    If you decide against purchasing, let me know. I've been looking for an SX90 (not II) for a while.
    JK SX90R Gold Lacquer over Nickel Alto
    JK SX90R Clear Lacquer Tenor
    Yamaha YBS-52 Bari

    Current band:
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  9. #7
    noesax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keilwerth counterfeit?

    Sorry, this horn sold the day after my first post.
    Keilwerth soprano, alto, tenor & baritone.

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