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Diminished: W-H for Dim, H-W for 7; rationale?

3K views 28 replies 8 participants last post by  Brenton 
#1 · (Edited)
Please educate me:
- why is it a Whole-Half diminished scale used over fully-diminished chords and
- why is it a Half-Whole diminished scale used over seventh chords?

Sometimes I see it's said as "commonly used" meaning that there are no rigid restrictions on usage of the diminished scales over specific harmonies, however I understand that common trends are a result of common practice which in turn is a result of what is commonly referred to as simply as "it sounds good".

Example: W-H C-dim scale = C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A-B-C over C-dim7 = C-Eb-Gb-A
H-W C-dim scale = C-Db-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C over C7 = C-E-G-Bb

As far as I understand the key to the rationale for using one or another scale over particular harmony lies in the arrangement of half steps over chord tones.
For instance, if using W-H dim scale over C7 harmony the following conflicts will arise:
- F = a half-step over M3rd = E
- Ab = a half-step over P5th = G
- B = a half-step over m7th = Bb

In comparison, the C-Altered scale would only have one obviously conflicting note, Ab = b13th over C7 which is not so bad. I'm not sure how Db = b9 qualifies in terms of conflict with the Root of C7. It's obviously a conflicting note but I don't see it mentioned anywhere as such.

When applying the H-W C-dim scale over diminished harmony the conflicts with the C-dim chord tones are everywhere:
- Db a half step above C = Root
- E a half step above Eb = m3rd
- G a half step above Gb = dim5th
- Bb a half step above A = dim 7th

However when starting the scale on a chord tone all those conflicting notes fall on up-beats making them no worse than mere passing tones. Doesn't sound to me as bad.
As such there are no real conficts present other than the half steps go opposite the normal tendency to resolve to the next chord tone when used in an ascending motion.
However if used in a descending motion over the dim harmony the H-W dim scale sounds just as good as the W-H dim scale in the ascending motion.
I wonder why it isn't mention anywhere? In other words I see no real preference in using W-H or H-W dim scales over dim chords. Moreover usage of one or another is logically connected to the direction of scale run and I assume any patterns that will be associated with the chosen direction.
When the direction is changed however the choice of accidentals could be adjusted (wchich goes against the law of muscle memory and as such leaves us with one scale of preference). It's interesting to know in this respect: what diminished patterns are favoured more, ascending or descending?

However I'm still not sure about usage ristrictions of W-H dim scale over C7. It doesn't look (sorry! - sound :)) to me so bad. Besides F-B is a nice tritone that would probably nicely compliment the naturally built-in E-Bb one if used skillfully. 7th chords are all about tension to the highest degree of their potential so I don't see why W-H dim is a no-no as a valid scale choice for them. However I already mentioned possible usage restrictions and they look (sorry again! - sound) reasonably justified.

P.S. Feel free to correct any mistakes I made counting half and whole steps. No wonder these scales cause so much confucion.
P.S.P.S. I don't know how to get rid of all those "however's" in my post. Is it bearable as is?
 
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#2 ·
My limited understanding for the reason the HW sequence works well on Dom7 chords is because it contains all the alterations possible to the extensions (9,11,13), This is an area I also have been trying to better understand and hear lately.

For instance if you use the WH over a C7 you miss the b9 which is historically used a ton in Jazz. Not to mention you miss the 3rd and 5th and b7.
 
#3 ·
Good catch! Yes, indeed in H-W we have all the chord tones! and almost all the alterations natuarally present: b9, #9, #11 (b5) but there is no b13 (#5) but that's not a big problem and it can be elaborated along the way.
Sooooooo - no more questions why to use H-W over dominant 7th. - Thanks a lot!

The only thing left is why not to use both W-H and H-W over diminished 7th provided they have strong passing tone lead-ins on ascend and descend respectively.
 
#10 ·
There's not even any reason to think of it as a scale if you're confused. Just think of it as lower chromatic neighbor tones approaching the chord tones. Place the chord tones of your dim chord on downbeats and approach each one chromatically from below on the upbeats. Since your dominant chord is basically a diminished chord with the root lowered by a half-step, you can use that approach there, too. Just start approaching the third with this approach and go up and you'll find everything lines up perfectly.
 
#11 ·
That's a great idea! Especially in respect to a dominant (G7b9 for instance). If taken in it's raw basic form the H-W scale places fundamental chord tones of the dominant, namely B=3rd, D=5th and F=b7 on upbeats (well, actually if we go up the scale).
Anyway, in the worst case if running just a scale up it would be better to start it on a note other then the Root and in that case approaching one of the chord tones from a half-step below(placed on the up-beat) is a good idea.
That is, starting the run on up-beat like in _ Bb B.......... (#9 to 3).
I don't actually suggest that's a good way to construct lines. Perhaps just an educational tool to familiarize oneself with a layout of the scale in a logical way.
 
#13 ·
Thanks a lot to all the participants of this thread!
I finally realized there are no W-H or H-W diminished scales. There are only 3 symmentrical scales that can be called 'diminished' with different alignment over any given harmony. Why I haven't seen this before?

For instance, let's take a so-called C-dim H-W (to use over C7): C-Db-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C
Here is how it aligns over the C7 chord: If starting on the Root it places all basic chord tones (3rd, 5th, b7th) on the up-beats. I don't mean it's bad in itself but perhaps it's not something one thinks of when constructing a line from scratch.

Let's move a half-step up to Db of essentially the same scale.
If we write it out as: Db-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C-Db, we now have a "Db W-H scale" which aligns much better with the chord tones of C7.
It places 3rd, 5th and b7th on the downbeats which might be a good thing to start with.

However, I'm not sure that we are after some "pretty" sound when we intentionally choose to employ a purposely dissonant scale such as diminished over the dominant harmony. Do we actually want to place those altered tones on the downbeat when using diminished over the dominant harmony?
 
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