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Subtoning difficult on a horn

3K views 54 replies 15 participants last post by  Ballad state of mind 
#1 ·
What would you point to as possible problems in this scenario:

- Horn goes to tech, tech removes leaks
- I play test on a new reed, find the lower octave a little resistant but I can get all notes out
- Tech asks me to call him in a few days with feedback if necessary
- I find it very difficult to subtone anything below a D, however, all lower octave notes come out if I don't attempt to subtone them (I tried multiple reeds, new and used, and multiple mouthpieces. some mouthpieces were slightly better than others but none were great)

Have any of you had an experience like this? Does this mean the horn is still leaking somewhere? If not, any other ideas?
 
#2 ·
If you are at all capable to subtone not being able to do it on a recently overhauled horn would mean that not all the leaks have been addressed after the repadding. Unfortunately there are several examples of horns that are released without a thorough check.

Horns don’t need to be clamped shut before or after releasing to the customer ( that only creates a temporary seal which , as the felt and leather relax is lost) nor should the tech expect that you are going to bring the horn back and tell him about all the places where the horn leaks. He or she should have been waiting for the metal to spring back ( metal tends to go back to the original shape after bending) and the pads to have settled and THEN regulating the horn accordingly before giving it to you.

Do not accept any stories about horns needing breaking in or you grip to be firmer. Be clear that your money didn’t come with any caveats and was good to spend as he received it, why shouldn’t the horn good to be played as your money was good to spend?

Once I have had a tech whop put thin pieces of paper on the corks after he had noticed that they were too thin. I told him that this wouldn’t do and that I wanted new cork and he never played that trick again on me.

However do buy or make a leak light. In some cases I have put some masking tape on the keys with arrows pointing at all the leaks. Having a leak light is essential.



Gorilla grip is not the way one should close keys and if a horn isn’t shut it won’t play well.
 
#4 ·
No, he told no stories, I've been using this guy for years on all of my horns. He's not a wind player, he plays brass, but states that he uses a light touch when play testing horns and that he was able to play the horn up and down with no problems. So maybe I'm just a crap player, or the horn is still leaking somewhere.
 
#5 ·
Do you have a chance to play the horn in his shop? "Able to play ... with no problems" is not doing it. Heck, I could play up on down on a horn with a pad falling out, but that doesn't warrant that a horn is correct.
 
#6 ·
Before going back, I would do a suction test on the mouthpiece, then repeat with the mouthpiece and neck together. This eliminates any user issues like warped reed (a new reed is no guarantee) and/or a hairline fracture on the mouthpiece. If testing is good, have your tech check the tenon for possible leaks. Sometimes issues with lower notes are caused by leaks way up high.
 
#11 ·
Is it possible it's a reed strength issue? I've had horns feel more resistant after a trip to my tech .... like at some point I may have moved to a slightly harder reed to compensate for something with the horn, and when the horn issue finally gets fixed the reed feels too resistant, which makes subtoning hard.

Or it could be a leak ......
I've been playing Vandoren Red Java 3 for the past few years. I tried a few new reeds and 3-4 that were already well broken in. Do not have this issue on 2 other horns with the same setups.
 
#10 ·
Is it possible it's a reed strength issue? I've had horns feel more resistant after a trip to my tech .... like at some point I may have moved to a slightly harder reed to compensate for something with the horn, and when the horn issue finally gets fixed the reed feels too resistant, which makes subtoning hard.

Or it could be a leak ......
 
#13 ·
Sub-toning the low notes takes a lot of embouchure. Just sayin'.
The first place I look for a low register leak is the G# key. Lightly finger the lower stack and work the table keys while closely watching the G# to detect any movement. If you a modern sax with screw adjusters for the G# and bis key 'bridge' between the stacks, you can fix those two places which require regular attention regardless of when you had an overhaul. In fact, you're more likely to need some adjustments soon after an overhaul because of 'settling-in' of compressible materials like pads, cork and felt.
You will need to look over the whole sax starting with the neck octave and fit of the tenon to find any leaks. Without a light, use your eyes to detect movement. Use sound to detect a difference in a leaking pad by tapping on the cups while you hold them shut with normal pressure. This is basic stuff that any sax player does all the time, particularly at band practice while the stupid guitar players/'singers' try to pick out their parts without the benefit of musical knowledge or talent.
 
#14 ·
if you could do it before and can’t now is not a set up or ability problem but a horn problem.

Playing through leaks. I certainly can, but I will notice that I can’t play softly, for example.

The horn , I am quite sure, leaks and you should check for leaks yourself.
 
#15 ·
if you could do it before and can't now is not a set up or ability problem but a horn problem.

Playing through leaks. I certainly can, but I will notice that I can't play softly, for example.

The horn , I am quite sure, leaks and you should check for leaks yourself.
Yeah that's what I'm saying, it's not like I couldn't subtone before and now I still can't... it's not an issue for me on other horns. Yes, I can play through leaks too but playing low notes softly is one thing I apparently can't do. I've got a call into my tech and I'm hoping I can get in there this afternoon before tonight's gig.

I do not have a leak light. What should I buy?
 
#24 ·
but if OP was subtoning perfectly before the overhaul suspect the reed or the mouthpiece is less than a likely culprit, even more so if he has tried multiple mouthpieces and reeds?

It might take two seconds but what’s the point?

Anyway, owning a leak light should be made compulsory :bluewink: because it the first diagnostic stop to anyone anyway.
 
#27 ·
I see why these forums have so many people just watching and choose not the chime in. It's because there's always a couple of knuckle heads whose sole intentions are to put down the next person down and simply argue. Most long threads here have people arguing. it's just sad!

The suction test, for those who don't know, tests for numerous things. I only mentioned two, some of the most obvious but the players, non techs, got stuck on those. The suction test can confirm if the neck cork is sealing properly, if there's a leak in the octave pip, the pad is ripped or misaligned, and/or even if the neck tenon is leaking where it's soldered. Whether or not the OP chooses to follow it, is his prerogative however to dismiss it all together is just wrong. It's a well accepted and valid test. It's not like I asked the OP to submerge his sax in tank of water and look for bubbles!

In 2015 I overhauled 59 saxes, 67 in 2016 and I've done 26 this year. For those who are players, how many saxes have you overhauled? Just last week alone, I through out four mouthpieces that came in the instruments that were purchased, each was cracked at the shank lengthwise. But maybe you're not familiar with this scenario since you don't work on saxes like I do.

So while you want to come on the forum AND TYPE IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE YOU'RE A DRAMA QUEEN, please save your comments. You can heed or not heed the next idea but don't put it down.
 
#28 ·
The suction test, for those who don't know, tests for numerous things. I only mentioned two, some of the most obvious but the players, non techs, got stuck on those. The suction test can confirm if the neck cork is sealing properly, if there's a leak in the octave pip, the pad is ripped or misaligned, and/or even if the neck tenon is leaking where it's soldered. Whether or not the OP chooses to follow it, is his prerogative however to dismiss it all together is just wrong. It's a well accepted and valid test. It's not like I asked the OP to submerge his sax in tank of water and look for bubbles!
No need to be a prick about it, Kirb. As I said, the test is very sensitive to false negatives.

In 2015 I overhauled 59 saxes, 67 in 2016 and I've done 26 this year. For those who are players, how many saxes have you overhauled? Just last week alone, I through out four mouthpieces that came in the instruments that were purchased, each was cracked at the shank lengthwise. But maybe you're not familiar with this scenario since you don't work on saxes like I do.
Why should I be familiar with cracked mouthpieces? None of mine have cracked in 45+ years of playing. None.

So while you want to come on the forum AND TYPE IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE YOU'RE A DRAMA QUEEN, please save your comments. You can heed or not heed the next idea but don't put it down.
All caps on the occasional word is for EMPHASIS. Sheesh...

Check your meds.
 
#35 ·
Found two very slight leaks on this horn, the bottom of low C and low D toward the inside of top/inside of the horn. With very firm pressure they go away, but they're there. Also, I noticed that after playing for maybe 20 minutes I'm able to subtone with (mostly) no issues. Do pads swell after playing for a bit? If so, maybe that would explain why?

And basically, I paid like $12 for this leak light because I'm using my iPhone power adaptor to power it. If anyone wants links to exactly what I bought, let me know.
 
#40 ·
some pads do swell once the water vapor condenses on them after a bit of playing, although most pads these days have some waterproofing outside or inside or both.

Also, depending on the pad, there are several materials inside which might react to compression or swelling under humidity. A pad would generally harden over time though.

There are so many types of pads.

Anyway leaks which disappear with a gorilla grip are still not acceptable because even if you were able to memorize the strength you need to use all the time when playing those notes, this would certainly slow you down. Ideally a saxophone needs to close with a light touch.

In the end it is all a matter of having the right materials, possessing the proper skills and spending enough time to address any issue prior to releasing a horn. Unfortunately, under the constraints of time, for example, some techs cut corners.
 
#41 ·
some pads do swell once the water vapor condenses on them after a bit of playing, although most pads these days have some waterproofing outside or inside or both.

Also, depending on the pad, there are several materials inside which might react to compression or swelling under humidity. A pad would generally harden over time though.

There are so many types of pads.

Anyway leaks which disappear with a gorilla grip are still not acceptable because even if you were able to memorize the strength you need to use all the time when playing those notes, this would certainly slow you down. Ideally a saxophone needs to close with a light touch.

In the end it is all a matter of having the right materials, possessing the proper skills and spending enough time to address any issue prior to releasing a horn. Unfortunately, under the constraints of time, for example, some techs cut corners.
When I first start playing, even with a strong grip, I can't subtone. 20 or so minutes later, no problem.
 
#44 ·
ultimately if a tech cocks-up things time and time again he will fall in disrepute and the market would eject him or her, the problem is all the people who are insecure or simply not informed or good players who will accept the work anyway and blame themselves for the fact that the horn plays badly.
 
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