Looking for a couple of valuations

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  1. #1
    gwysham's Avatar
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    Default Looking for a couple of valuations

    Hey, all-

    It's been a couple of years since I frequented this list, but it's the first place I thought of when looking for valuations. We've been offered a couple of instruments, but the sellers want "fair market value" for them, and I don't know quite what to say. eBay is all well and good, but finding a truly comparable instrument is near impossible, and I don't want to either cheat them or overpay them for the instruments! That being said, here are the particulars:

    1958 Conn 16m Serial #735XXX

    Pretty good physical condition, lacquer ~99% (roughest inside the bell rim). Very few nicks/scratches. Not playing because the high E pad is shredded. Most LH keys need repadding, but the RH has been re-padded at some point with non-Conn style pads. Body appears straight. Neck looks good. Has 2 mpcs; (older?) Selmer Goldentone 3, and an unmarked (the original?) with a metal ring around the shank. Comes in a Conn tenor case that appears to be slightly too long for it!

    1929 Buescher True-tone alto Serial #249XXX (Low Pitch)

    Also pretty good physically. Pads actually look pretty good, but there are obvious adjustment problems. Mixed lot of pads, so a repad some time in its history. Body looks good. Satin silver finish is 99+%, no obvious dents or dings. 2 necks, one is labeled “1” (the octave mech is slightly “S” shaped from being bent to the side and improperly bent back), the other is labeled “01”, and 3 mouthpieces; Selmer B* Medium, Selmer Soloist E, and (the original?) Buescher Tru-Lay marked “55/812 M” on the table. Original case with places for a flute and a clarinet in the lid (just clips!). Has a Victory branded metal Bb clarinet in the lid that I’m not actually interested in buying, but am mildly curious about.

    19?? Pan-American Oboe Serial #33XXX

    Fair condition, needs a repad, some keys are etched with corrosion. Looks like it’s actual wood (!). One pinned crack in the top joint. Original case that seems to be holding it well.

    We're actually in the market for a tenor (we already have one nice alto and, of course, my baby the 11M), so the 16M would fill a whole in our menagerie. We find ourselves playing rather a lot of tenor recently, considering we don't own one (played Thoroughly Modern Millie last month, and playing Little Shop of Horrors this week, and we keep being asked to fill in in the local swing band, almost always on tenor), but I kind of like the thought of a nice alto for *me* to play, rather than the Bundy I use when I have to. We're not in the market for an oboe (we have a nicer one already) but know someone who might be interested in the right instrument. I'm sure I've opened a can of worms, looking for opinions and all, but I can't think of a better place to turn!

    If I need to break these up into separate questions and put them in their own sub-fora, I'd be happy to do that! Pictures can be arranged, as well.

    Thanks, all!
    197? Conn 11M Bari, Gemeinhardt 3SSB Flute, Conn 6D French Horn
    Flatiron 1N Mandolin, Trinity College Bouzouki, 1929 Bacon & Day Style C Tenor Banjo
    Bodhran, bones, numerous whistles, etc.

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    Forum Contributor 2016 musekatcher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    I'll take a swag at market prices: 16M ~$150 (assume it needs $150 in service), TT ~$100 (assume it needs a full repad), Oboe ~$100 assuming it needs a full service. Expect to recover your investment on the tenor. The issue with all of these, is that they aren't playable. Teams of unplayable instruments for sale, that aren't moving.
    Best, Jim

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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    For the Beuscher I would put it higher at about $400-700 depending on condition BUT those mouthpieces can be gems. The Soloist E if it is a short shank could bring upwards of $500. Even the Buescher mouthpiece has some value.

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    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    in my experience the TT changes radically value if and when it is a type III or IV with front F and G# roller the earlier ones not quite so, in fact they sell very badly and sometimes don’t sell at all. The ones with those characteristics might get as high as 1000 is overhauled and in perfect state, if not detract at least €250.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

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    gwysham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    Thanks, guys, this is good info. I'll have another look at that Soloist E, Bruce. Milandro, I showed my wife the G# roller last night, didn't notice about the front F, but I'll look!

    Keep in mind guys, I'm probably not going to flip these; I want to offer the seller(s) a fair price while not breaking my *own* bank!
    197? Conn 11M Bari, Gemeinhardt 3SSB Flute, Conn 6D French Horn
    Flatiron 1N Mandolin, Trinity College Bouzouki, 1929 Bacon & Day Style C Tenor Banjo
    Bodhran, bones, numerous whistles, etc.

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    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    The G roller with the Halfmoon is certainly a pre. Remmeber I was talking of prices of perfectly overhauled saxophones, subtract the price of the overhaul at the very least!
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

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    gwysham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    Yeah, I got that. Were you talking €1000 or $1000?
    197? Conn 11M Bari, Gemeinhardt 3SSB Flute, Conn 6D French Horn
    Flatiron 1N Mandolin, Trinity College Bouzouki, 1929 Bacon & Day Style C Tenor Banjo
    Bodhran, bones, numerous whistles, etc.

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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    there isn’t much difference nowadays but I was talking of €, prices vary between markets and it is not only a question of currency but local prices are different.

    I couldn’t buy a TT alto, not even one of the oldest ones, for $100 but maybe it is possible in the US, but not here.

    The problem is that if I would buy one of those any overhaul would cost more than the horn is worth, even with the overhaul.

    But the ones with front F and G# rollers have a different market. The 01 figure on the neck detracts from the price somewhat. You may be aware that there were several versions of the TT neck and i think the most desirable is the 03.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    Many, many years ago I picked up a silver plated True Tone alto on Ebay for about $241.00. Even with its original neck (1), it outplayed by SBA alto which I sold in short order. When I was lucky enough to find an 01 Aristocrat neck and had it restored and fitted to the horn, it cured its intonational quirks. Now the 3 neck is often touted as the one Rascher played, but it was the 01 neck which apparently became the standard. The 01 necks are highly sought by True Tone owners who experience the sharp upper end of its range (above A2), so the 01 neck alone could sell for $300 or more if in decent shape. The horn itself with the 1 neck in need of an overhaul would also go for around $300.

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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    More data points! Thanks, Grumps!
    Last edited by gwysham; 04-18-2017 at 02:56 PM. Reason: Typo
    197? Conn 11M Bari, Gemeinhardt 3SSB Flute, Conn 6D French Horn
    Flatiron 1N Mandolin, Trinity College Bouzouki, 1929 Bacon & Day Style C Tenor Banjo
    Bodhran, bones, numerous whistles, etc.

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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    I can't speak on the conn or the oboe but regarding the TT alto (I sell a lot of them), it's a series IV. Which means it has the front F and the roller G#. If physically in great condition, that horn alone normally sells for $250-$400. The extra neck could easily be worth an extra $75-$100. So based on your description of this horn, I would value it at around $325-$500.

    One thing you mentioned that could be of concern however, is the fact that it has mixed pads. Because it does, check to make sure that EVERY key has the original snap in (whether you want them or not). The high price point of $500 is based on this fact. If not all the snaps are present, then shoot for the low end $350.

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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    *Very* good to know! I seriously doubt they'd all be snap-ins. As I said, they're a mixed bag. I remember specifically noting that two of the palm key pads were plain and one was riveted. Thanks for the word!
    197? Conn 11M Bari, Gemeinhardt 3SSB Flute, Conn 6D French Horn
    Flatiron 1N Mandolin, Trinity College Bouzouki, 1929 Bacon & Day Style C Tenor Banjo
    Bodhran, bones, numerous whistles, etc.

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    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    The last one that I had of one of these had all original snap in and my tech overhauled it modifying all the pads to fit the studs.

    By the way I ordered a set specially made for one of these and the set didn’t fit.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

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    krazykirb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    By the way I ordered a set specially made for one of these and the set didn’t fit.
    Nice horn!
    I can tell you that unless your local shop carries pad sets based on serial number ranges, no pad set is ever 100% accurate.
    The entire True-tone line alone requires at least four different pad sets (talking just alto saxes here). Coincidentally, each almost matching the series we've assigned during modern times. Hence why we should all avoid them like the plague.

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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    Quote Originally Posted by gwysham View Post
    I remember specifically noting that two of the palm key pads were plain and one was riveted
    An all original horn is always worth more, i'm sure you know. But if somethings are no longer original, and they don't bother you, you can still make the seller pay for it

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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    Thanks for all the help on the alto. I've done a bunch of reading today re: snap-on pads and making modern pads fit. I'm currently leaning toward black roo pads with some type of reso (depending on what's left of the snap-on stuff!), and having to do all the work myself. I certainly can't afford modern overhaul prices!

    I also need advice on the 16M. Price range? Again, I'll probably end up doing black roos with flat metal resos myself, so not paying for a professional overhaul and flipping it.

    Time to learn more about sax work than just the occasional pad or cork (or neck cork!).

    G-
    197? Conn 11M Bari, Gemeinhardt 3SSB Flute, Conn 6D French Horn
    Flatiron 1N Mandolin, Trinity College Bouzouki, 1929 Bacon & Day Style C Tenor Banjo
    Bodhran, bones, numerous whistles, etc.

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    gwysham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    Okay, I've just had a closer look at the TT pads, and it looks like there are *no* snap-ons left! I know I definitely saw brown shellac sticking out from around one of the pads. Most are empty in the middle (just a dimple), and others have rivets. I'll have to take some of them out to see what exactly was done. I suspect the old spuds were removed (somehow) and repadding will be a matter of the modern style of floating in. I'll also have to decide what, if any, resos I want to use, too.
    197? Conn 11M Bari, Gemeinhardt 3SSB Flute, Conn 6D French Horn
    Flatiron 1N Mandolin, Trinity College Bouzouki, 1929 Bacon & Day Style C Tenor Banjo
    Bodhran, bones, numerous whistles, etc.

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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    On the oboe: pan American were 2nd line (cheap) oboes manufactured through mid 50s by Conn, I think.

    Crack reduces the (already limited) value as does the lack of full conservatory key work, specifically, left hand F and c trill key (looks like a banana adjacent to 6th finger plate).

    From your description of (bad) condition, I'd say $100....if it were me, I wouldn't touch it. After an overhaul, it would still be worth $100, if that.

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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    Thanks, minstein. I'll pass that on (and likely pass on the oboe!).
    197? Conn 11M Bari, Gemeinhardt 3SSB Flute, Conn 6D French Horn
    Flatiron 1N Mandolin, Trinity College Bouzouki, 1929 Bacon & Day Style C Tenor Banjo
    Bodhran, bones, numerous whistles, etc.

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    krazykirb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for a couple of valuations

    Quote Originally Posted by gwysham View Post
    Thanks for all the help on the alto. I've done a bunch of reading today re: snap-on pads and making modern pads fit. I'm currently leaning toward black roo pads with some type of reso (depending on what's left of the snap-on stuff!), and having to do all the work myself. I certainly can't afford modern overhaul prices!
    Never the one to discourage anyone from trying anything new, but I'll let you in on what you might be in for.....Blackroos will definitely look great on your horn. However, if you've never done a complete overhaul on a sax, doing an overhaul with blackroos, is that much harder, due to how extremely firm they are. It requires that all tone holes are PERFECTLY level, something that no sax ever has. Unless it was part of the previous overhaul. On a Buescher you'll definitely need to level the low C#, low C, low Eb, and the entire lower stack for sure (There are always others). In short (I'll let you search the forum for a full prerequisite to doing an overhaul), you'll need a good handful of specialized tools. When you add that up to the cost of the materials you'll need (corks, felts, pads, shellac, glue, oil), you might have well just paid a repair tech to do it.

    If you still would like to give it a go, especially if this is your first repad, I would suggest a more forgiving pad like white roos or just their regular tan pads

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