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3.5 reeds are strong enough for 8*?!

4K views 41 replies 15 participants last post by  Dr G 
#1 ·
Howdy everyone!

I've been having some troubles lately and thought it bring it to the thread to see if I can get some advice!

I've been play on 2 mouthpieces for the past 3 years, a Phil Barone 7* piece (that I found on ebay which is similar to a link that has a wedge inside) and a Ted Klum Metal that is a prototype 8*. The Klum is solid brass and based off of and old Berg (She can sing!)

I've been playing Vandoren blue box 3-3.5 on both pieces and even the 3.5 will have a "thin" sound! What's going on?! I think the problems are in my embouchure. I'm working on not putting so much pressure from my bottom lip on the reed by doing double lip embouchure exercises 10-15 minutes a day. It helps get the corners of my mouth in shape!

Anyone want to help tackle this with me? I feel like a size 3 reed for an 8* should be "oh-so fine!"

I've tried different reeds(Java,Rigatti,Firestone, V16) they all seem to be a little to bright.

Thanks for the advice everyone! :)
 
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#6 ·
I feel like my tone is lacking center! :p

All jokes aside, I'll work with the mouthpiece for a while on #3 reeds(to get used to the mouthpiece) and when I move up to 3.5, I feel like I'm still blowing on the mouthpiece with a piece of paper. The sound is thin. Could it be my embouchure? Let me know if I can clarify anything in the post! :)
 
#10 ·
Winner winner. Yep, that's way too much tension. First thing you need to do is drop at least a 1/2 strength on your reeds. When I started digging myself out of this hole, I dropped from 3's to 2's (and I'm back up to 3's again, but doing it the right way). Keep in mind that this journey isn't going to happen quickly, and if you really want to reverse this you have to be patient with yourself and realize that it's going to probably take a long time to get this right.

Get softer reeds, then hit the long tone shed, focus on ZERO tension anywhere but your diaphragm. If you want to illustrate, pretend your thumb is a mouthpiece. Rest your top teeth on your thumb, take a big breath, then just blow with no tension. Remember this feeling, this is what you want to do with the mouthpiece in your mouth.
 
#12 ·
TP1, it sounds like you are using a tight, lip-rolled-over-the-teeth embouchure. Yes? I did the same thing for (too) many years. I've since transitioned to the no-embouchure embouchure (see the Jerry Bergonzi YouTube for an example), and can now play for hours without lacerating my lower lip.

I have some Vandoren Blue Box reeds, but I only use them for classical work. For something with a lil' more color, I like double cut reeds, such as Alexander DC. There's certainly no NEED to go to that high a strength for a .105-.115 tip opening. DC 2.5 is what I'd use, and recommend for a player with a good air stream, developed support, and solid embouchure. Relax to let the sound out - forced may well lead to thin (especially if you tighten your embouchure).

I'm no fan of long tones for the sake of long tones. I AM a fan of listening to my sound, and be aware of adjusting my air stream to adjust the harmonic content of my tone.
 
#13 ·
Dr.G!

I was using the lip-rolled-over-teeth embouchure for sometime. As of 3-4 months ago I started to put my bottom lip out a little more, which definitely has helped. I can play for a lot longer with less pain. I feel good about my air support but it's the embouchure that I'm worried about.

I think both Buddy Lee and the Doc himself are right! Less pressure on the bottom lip, more support from the corners of my mouth, and long tones! Does that sound right? :)
 
#15 ·
Dr.G!

I was using the lip-rolled-over-teeth embouchure for sometime. As of 3-4 months ago I started to put my bottom lip out a little more, which definitely has helped. I can play for a lot longer with less pain. I feel good about my air support but it's the embouchure that I'm worried about.

I think both Buddy Lee and the Doc himself are right! Less pressure on the bottom lip, more support from the corners of my mouth, and long tones! Does that sound right? :)
LISTEN to yourself, and tell us if it sounds right. :bluewink:

I think you are on the path, TP, with one reservation. If you feel inclined to play loooooooooooong toooooooooones, please be musical about it. For instance, if I feel a need to explore the nuances of a new mouthpiece, I will play something like "Infant Eyes" in a very obligato fashion - hanging on notes as I feel the need.

Above all, enjoy your music.
 
#14 ·
TP1, my advice would be (like others already mentioned) to go down to a reed size 2.5 or 3.0 and stop biting/fighting your reed.

I also found out that Rico Royal reeds can darken your sound considerably (at least for me!).
 
#16 ·
HI've been playing Vandoren blue box 3-3.5 on both pieces
Why play such hard reeds (I've heard blue box reeds run harder than most other reeds at the same number)? I think that's a big part of your problem. If the reed is too hard, there's a tendency to bite, as others have already pointed out. Biting will result in a thin and overly bright tone. If you go down in reed strength and fix the biting issue, then maybe you could play some of those other reed brands and not sound too bright, especially on the Barone mpc.

I wouldn't worry too much about how much lip is rolled over your teeth. Concentrate on loosening up regardless of where your lip is.
 
#17 ·
I've been play on 2 mouthpieces for the past 3 years, a Phil Barone 7* piece (that I found on ebay which is similar to a link that has a wedge inside) and a Ted Klum Metal that is a prototype 8*. The Klum is solid brass and based off of and old Berg (She can sing!)
Which Barone is that? If it is of the Link-inspired pieces, they range (brightest to darker) from New York, Hollywood, to Jazz. I found the NY to play pretty bright for me. The Hollywood can get bright if you push it, the Jazz is still no dark mouthpiece.

Is your Klum a "London"? I had one recently and could not rein it in. Too bright and wild for me - but I recognize that if a mouthpiece goes to 12, I'll go there with it.

What is your preferred concept? The mix of Vandoren Blue reeds with these mouthpieces just strikes me as weird. It seems like you may be trying to take a mouthpiece to a place that wasn't intended.
 
#18 ·
The Barone is unmarked! I'll take a picture of it. It looks like a link/dukoff hybrid if I had to guess. Definitely brighter than a Hollywood though.

The Klum is a prototype that I think is going to be released. It's solid brass, and looks like a hard rubber Berg. It was based on a vintage hard rubber. I'll take a pic of that too!

I use Blue Box to try and get a darker sound. Dark reed with a semi-bright mouthpiece. I'd love to shoot for a Dexter tone, with more R&B power. I know that my set up may not allow for that. Someone like Eric Marienthal's tenor sound I feel gets to that point. I'm trying to go for the fullness of Dexter, with the power of Lenny Pickett. Is that even possible?!
 
#19 ·
That Klum should be what he calls a "London" now, if it has a bullet chamber. I didn't find it to be crazy bright, just loud. Maybe look into Vandoren V16 reeds if you like a darker reed that isn't going to be a 2x4 like the blue box reeds are. They're still stiffer than the average bear though, maybe drop down to a V16 size 2 and go from there?
 
#20 ·
Tenorplayer1: Just use your mouthpiece and try to play a concert G with a tuner. If you are biting your pitch will be much higher. Then get used to how the concert G feels without the horn. That is your embouchure tension. FWIW: G is about where you should be. If you are at a G#above or an F# below you will be fine. Everyone is different.... Dizzy Gillespie anyone? He sounded great to me and used "improper" technique.

Sax mouthpiece pitches: D=Bari G=Tenor A=Alto C=Soprano (all concert pitch)

and...I agree with the posts thus far:

You are most likely using reeds that are too hard. Blue Box 3.5 is comparatively a 4 in most jazz reeds. On a 7* I prefer a jazz 3/Blue box 2.5...on an 8* you would go even softer.

Go for the sound....not a number.

Have fun!!!
 
#24 ·
I think 3.5 vandoren blue box(a java 4) on a 8* mouthpiece is unnecessarily hard. It won't make the sound bigger or louder just drier and not particularly focused. Well everybody is different but I use 3 1/2 or 3 in the 7*, 8 tips. We all can get used to playing reed 5 on a 10 tip opening(trust me it's not as difficult as it seems) but even when you make it sound fine it will be just fighting against the physics. Big tip openings need a bigger amount of vibration/oscillatory motion of the reed, and hard reeds obviously have less of both than softer ones. That's why hard reeds don't close up on small tips. It's not about putting a lot of biting pressure and finding the reed that doesn't close up, it's about playing with very little pressure from your jaw and then go up/down in reed size to fine tune "to your taste" things like resistance,darkness, brightness... to your own sound. Rigottis are brighter than Blue boxes Vando but if you play with a lot of pressure already on a blue box when you change a to a brighter(softer as well) reeds it will sound extra bright cause it won't be sound but controlled squeak.
 
#25 ·
Jerry is great! I love the Boston accent too!

So I had a practice session today and I've been paying attention to my chin, making sure it doesn't bunch. It does move slightly, which is think is okay (?) I went down to a 3 Blue Box.

Can someone remind me what the following exercise is? I put my metronome at 60, played from middle D to G, 8 beats per note, and on the 8th beat take a breath leading into the next note(half step up). When I breath, I make sure not to move my embouchure! Breath in through the nose. Is there a name for this?

Hopefully in time this will help with playing. I did 3 rounds of that exercise and my lips are shaking! :D It feels like I'm working on new muscles.

Thanks for all the help everyone! I know it can be a pain sometimes teaching the basics, so I really appreciate all the help!
 
#27 ·
Yes still a bit hard. Try a 2 1/2 or a java 3 instead. Just keep in mind one thing don't bother too much thinking about the pressure coming from your lips, think about your jaw(bite), if it's relaxed the rest of your embouchure will be as well just with the right amount of firmness to focus the sound and control the intonation.
 
#34 ·
But didn't you say it's a #3 Vandoren blue box reed? I haven't played those but from what I hear they are the hardest reeds Vandoren makes (i.e. a 3 blue box reed is considerably harder than a 3 in other brands). I like V16 reeds and they are noticeably harder than most other reeds I've played (by about 1/2 strength), yet supposedly not as hard as blue box. I play 2.5 V16 which seems about the same as a 3 light or 3 medium Rigotti (which I also play). And those strengths are what I'd call medium strength.

So you are still using a relatively hard reed. Which might be fine if you weren't having the issues you are describing.
 
#33 ·
Wouldn't hurt to try. You'll know it's too soft if it's difficult to play the high notes without the reed closing up on you. If you can play the full range of the horn without biting or straining, you've found your strength.

I use a 2.5 on a 7*, but everyone is different and you have to experiment to find what allows you to play with ease, so the instrument stays out of your way.
 
#36 ·
Wouldn't hurt to try. You'll know it's too soft if it's difficult to play the high notes without the reed closing up on you.
This might be the case, or it could be that the softer reed is good, but you just haven't yet developed the strength of embouchure (and air support) required to play softer reeds.
 
#37 ·
I would suggest going down in tip opening if the air support is the biggest issue. You could get just used to the one you have but you will have to work twice as hard. When it comes to set up we all need to have a big " common sense " . What works for you doesn't work for me because we all have different physical attributes, sound goals, ears. As a very general thing, "on a given mouthpiece model" the bigger the tip opening the darker and more spread the sound will get. So for an instance someone who's aiming for an extra focused sound wouldn't play an otto link 10. It's possible to do it but what's the point? I am sure most of the issues come from air support/embouchure, but fighting a set up can make a big influence as well in sound and intonation. For example as I said I used 3, 3 1/2(RSJ strength) on 7*, 8 tips, I wouldn't use a 4 on my Maestra 8 because I would sound way too dull for my sound concept and I kill the 2 1/2 too quick and they are a bit brighter than I like. I am pretty sure some one else prefers harder or softer reeds on the same MP. It's all about what works for "you". What's your sound concept?
 
#38 ·
I would suggest going down in tip opening if the air support is the biggest issue. You could get just used to the one you have but you will have to work twice as hard. When it comes to set up we all need to have a big " common sense " . What works for you doesn't work for me because we all have different physical attributes, sound goals, ears. As a very general thing, "on a given mouthpiece model" the bigger the tip opening the darker and more spread the sound will get. So for an instance someone who's aiming for an extra focused sound wouldn't play an otto link 10. It's possible to do it but what's the point? I am sure most of the issues come from air support/embouchure, but fighting a set up can make a big influence as well in sound and intonation. What's your sound concept?
That was throwing me as well. Here is the OP's statement of concept (post #18):

I use Blue Box to try and get a darker sound. Dark reed with a semi-bright mouthpiece. I'd love to shoot for a Dexter tone, with more R&B power. I know that my set up may not allow for that. Someone like Eric Marienthal's tenor sound I feel gets to that point. I'm trying to go for the fullness of Dexter, with the power of Lenny Pickett. Is that even possible?!
 
#41 ·
I have been rolling my lower lip over my lower teeth for 40 years. I never get pain on the inside of my lip although I have uneven lower teeth. But! - I typically use reeds in the #2 1/2 range, on my mouthpieces which are" Alto - Meyer #7, Tenor - Meyer #8, bari - Meyer #8 - in other words, moderately open but not real open.

On those occasions when I play a Selmer C* soloist on alto or tenor I DO NOT use a harder reed. I also experience no increase in difficulty in playing the high notes when I go from the more open MP to the more closed MP with the same reed.

I think the best thing the OP could do is to seriously work the embouchure and tone with something around a #2 1/2 (in regular Vandoren this might even be #2) reeds.

I do have a rather fleshy mouth so even with the lower lip rolled over the lower teeth, there's a lot of meat there to cushion the reed and provide something for the embouchure muscles to push against. Someone with a thin lean facial structure may do better with the lower lip rolled out. However, I believe that with proper training the standard embouchure is just fine for most players.

Do not try to make the clarinetist's flat-chin embouchure! This pulls meat away from the lower lip area where you need it! Bad Bad Bad idea.

Finally, keep in mind Larry Teal's discussion on the embouchure muscles, where he describes it as the spokes of a wheel all pushing inward, not a clamp from above and a clamp from below. Paul Harvey (not the page two guy) I believe referred to it as the concept of a drawstring on a pouch. I often use the phrase "like a Labrador dog picking up a duck; firm and strong but without biting".

I will have to respectfully disagree with Dr G on the value of long tones, but what I do may be different than what he's thinking of. I think you can build strength and flexibility very quickly with the exercise I use which is to take each note from pppp (like, where the note threatens to flicker out altogether) up to ffff (where the note keeps trying to break up) and back down to pppp. Key in this exercise in my mind is not to try to stay in a comfort zone of beautiful sound and low effort, but rather to keep working at the raggedy edges where it wants to blow out or break up. This will teach you through actual experience what you have to do with your embouchure, and what it feels like to be doing it, at those limits. Then in actual playing situations you will be able to play louder, and softer, with good control.

Anyone can get a beautiful sound playing mezzo-forte, on a middle F, with a full bait of air. Doing it at pppp or ffff, on low Bb or high F#, when your air ran out five seconds ago, that's what separates the men and women from the boys and girls.
 
#42 ·
I will have to respectfully disagree with Dr G on the value of long tones, but what I do may be different than what he's thinking of. I think you can build strength and flexibility very quickly with the exercise I use which is to take each note from pppp (like, where the note threatens to flicker out altogether) up to ffff (where the note keeps trying to break up) and back down to pppp. Key in this exercise in my mind is not to try to stay in a comfort zone of beautiful sound and low effort, but rather to keep working at the raggedy edges where it wants to blow out or break up. This will teach you through actual experience what you have to do with your embouchure, and what it feels like to be doing it, at those limits. Then in actual playing situations you will be able to play louder, and softer, with good control.

Anyone can get a beautiful sound playing mezzo-forte, on a middle F, with a full bait of air. Doing it at pppp or ffff, on low Bb or high F#, when your air ran out five seconds ago, that's what separates the men and women from the boys and girls.
No issues, turf3. Your long tones program is the real deal, and I respect that. I have long grown tired of people saying "long tones, long tones, long tones" and having no concept of what they are doing. They think that just playing a note for 8 counts is the drill, and that's it. Your concept and mine are not so different - I, too, explore the edges of tone and dynamics, while maintaining air stream and support. My twist is to do it within some harmonic structure, but that is to give me a tonal center and harmonic structure that pushes me to also listen to intonation - one that works for me.
 
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