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Buescher C-Melody A2 and higher really sharp

6K views 37 replies 12 participants last post by  jhammons01 
#1 ·
Really sharp up there, tried a few MPCs and reeds. Tips to iron this out? Octave gear doesn't seem to be functioning wrong, and I have made sure all rods are in place, so it would probably be some adjustments that I will have to make.
 
#13 ·
Initially, one digit of the serial number was obscured, so I thought it was a 1905. Later, after some cleaning, I noticed another digit, and it is dated to 1923. Pretty big difference. :p

That's a lil' non-specific when it comes to troubleshooting a problem. What mpcs?
The original Beuscher C melody MPC, an odd Tenor MPC I have that works well with most C-Melody saxes that I encounter, an old Alto MPC, small chamber size, and a Berg Larsen 80/3 metal, with a little bigger chamber. Most of these work pretty decently with C-Mels I encounter. I haven't given Bass Clarinet reeds on the original MPC a try yet, but I can't really be bothered to. I cannot recall what brands the odd Tenor MPC and the old Alto MPC are, but I can say they have pretty similar chamber sizes to the C-Mel piece. Also, with Low B and Bb on all of these mpcs, it goes a bit flat, but that is most likely due to those bars not sealing, which I have noted they aren't. Another case of can't be bothered. If I press a little firmer, they seal and it goes to pitch.
 
#4 ·
Two big things with these Bueschers - mouthpiece chamber size mismatch which throws the extreme notes of the range out of tune (low notes flat, high notes sharp) and the neck octave pip being positioned at an "anti-node" which throws out the A alone about 20 cents sharp, also hurting its response too. The mouthpiece chamber size issue is something you're going to run into with just about every vintage saxophone designed before the advent of smaller chamber mouthpieces and it may be your issue here, especially if you're using an alto mouthpiece on a C melody.
 
#11 ·
Was thinking about that. Saw someone had done that with a Cheap 'Nino on that sub-forum. I would rather not have to bother too in-depth with finding something I can spare for this, but I can if I need too. Hopefully it ends up being something pretty easy like some crud in the neck, because finding a sheet of anything flexible around here that isn't already tabbed for a project is a miracle.
 
#12 ·
Just examined the neck. Clean as a whistle, I think someone may have given it a chemical bath of some kind at some point, because it has an off dullish grey color inside. The octave pip has no obstructions. When triggered, it opens about 1/4 inch, have plenty of room to adjust to more or less.
 
#21 ·
Did you try the FAXX C-Mel Mouthpiece?

I had my digital tuner out for one of my vids....That model Buescher shouldn't be so wonky with the tuning.
Yeah, I was thinking that. I have noticed my G key pad is too thick, someone did a repad on this using some seriously thick pads on the upper stack. I recently had a chance to work on a ?24 Beuscher with the original pads, and the oddly fiberous material below the white leather. Kinda made me nervous, that stuff. Kinda seemed like asbestos. Anyway, I noticed how those pads were mostly pretty close to being even with the pad cup, or only going slightly past it. Yeah, my pads don?t do that. Also, that one was definitely silver plated, and also had snap in resonators. Mine has no resonators and is kinda greenish, sort of like a really dull satin gold finish... it may have just all worn off though, but then why would it ALL be uniformly that way?
 
#18 · (Edited)
I'm curious, did the OP ever solve this problem? I would say it's bizarre that the original piece played out of tune, but my TT bari plays out of tune with a pickle barrel, so I can't say I find it that surprising.
OP, did you set the key heights yourself? If not, was it last serviced by a sax specialist or just some tech? I wonder if that is the source of the problem.

I think I know the A 'anti-node' thing Eradium mentioned - with the tenor Florida Link I use, my Buescher's A2 wants to be about 15 cents sharp while the A1 is perfectly in-tune. It's a few cents sharp with every piece, but only that much with that one STM (coincidentally the piece I like most on the horn :().
 
#20 ·
I'm curious, did the OP ever solve this problem? I would say it's bizarre that the original piece played out of tune, but my TT bari plays out of tune with a pickle barrel, so I can't say I find it that surprising.
OP, did you set the key heights yourself? If not, was it last serviced by a sax specialist or just some tech? I wonder if that is the source of the problem.

I think I know the A 'anti-node' thing Eradium mentioned - with the tenor Florida Link I use, my Buescher's A2 wants to be about 15 cents sharp while the A1 is perfectly in-tune. It's a few cents sharp with every piece, but only that much with that one STM (coincidentally the piece I like most on the horn
).
Yeah, I got it figured out, the upper stack plays in tune with the original MPC now, though it is now pretty much confined to just that MPC to be in tune. Below low D still goes progressively flatter, but been too busy with band and my cars to bother with it lately. As it gets colder, I will be even more busy with my cars, but at least band will calm down.
 
#23 ·
It?s probably a bare brass model. No playing whatsoever.
Does it have a strong metal smell?
Not at all. Smells like an old musty barn that has seen better times... Yeah, I know it is the pads, but I personally think it adds character. But it has no metallic smell to it whatsoever. Also, it does have spots where prints were worn into (or tarnished into) the lower thumb rest, and the Eb key had the coolest looking tarnish pattern on it, it was black, but it is really faded and faint. it has DEFINITELY had its fair share of use. Key rods were pretty worn down, and I did have to replace a few pivot screws (albeit recently, but it was due to how worn out they were). Person who owned it before the previous owner supposedly used it on gigs for 10 years. No idea about anything else, but it seems to line up.
 
#24 ·
Well, I have real Bass Clarinet Reeds. I have a Bass Clarinet I have to practice with, because I play Contrabass Clarinet for concert in the band now, our other person who had a tall enough upper body graduated. I have to sit on a stack of four of the cruddy blue chairs we have in U.S. schools now. Anyway, home Bass Clarinet is so bad Keys fall off after 6 minutes of playing and the thing barely works, but that is for another topic and another sub forum. I got out my C-Mel, dusted off the case, cringed at the smell as I opened it, and started playing. I only have some weak little Rico orange box 2.5s, but I can already tell a difference after just 1 minute. It definitely sounds a little cleaner. I removed the plastic insert in the neck. My upper octave is now in tune without it. But the issue I had with going flatter as you went down starting from a low D, now begins more around low E natural. No, it isn?t because of the 1 and 3 Eb, that seals fine, and it is actually completely in tune in the upper octave. This is with the original mouthpiece, by the way. So, current standing;

Upper end in tune, lower end even MORE flat.
Halp?

Edit: after further playing, low Bb is an entire 1/4 step flat. If you REALLY clamp and work, you end up with a ton of warble, but it goes in tune. If you relax all the way, it goes the rest of the way to a 10 cents sharp low A natural. Fun! On a day when it isn?t 64 degrees (Fahrenheit) in my room, I might be able to get that the rest of the way there if I meditate before playing, lol.
 
#25 ·
"Low Pitch" wasn't quite A=440 back in the day, it was 438. Pushing in to compensate will affect the top of the horn disproportionately. A smaller-chambered mouthpiece will bring up the pitch more evenly across the horn but also affect the tone in a way you may or may not like. Personally, I found the sound of a bright tenor mouthpiece on a Buescher C-mel was great. Almost like a jazz tenor at the bottom, almost like a classical alto at the top.
 
#29 ·
Well... After some renewed bouts of experimentation... the results are the same with all option... however... in mostly equal amounts. Low Bb is far and away the flattest note... I am intending to use the original mouthpiece for all applications I have for this horn... I might tune the low Bb, and adjust the whole horn to it... found out about crescents recently, I am willing to give it a shot... I am definitely going to be further abusing my $50 practice horn (now semi-playable, somehow...) for this just to get down the technique of installing them... But the real finicky bit will still be sanding back just the right amount. Before anyone says to take it to a tech... Nobody within ANY reasonable distance of me is willing to take this thing on at this point. It seems I shall just have to be a consumer of super cheap wrecked horns as practice pieces, and work myself up to it. Does anyone have any other suggestions before I attempt this? It will be quite a lot of work... for me, at least. I am viewing this as more of last resort, but the low Bb is over a whole step flat, and it begins rapidly going progressively more flat around low F natural... I can lip down all day, but I cannot lip up anywhere near as much...
 
#33 ·
I am viewing this as more of last resort, but the low Bb is over a whole step flat, and it begins rapidly going progressively more flat around low F natural... I can lip down all day, but I cannot lip up anywhere near as much...
I'm beginning to suspect you may have the wrong neck for that body, or that the dimensions of the neck have been altered (possibly by well-intended repairs). That is just ludicrously far out, and no amount of pushing in will bring the bottom end up a semitone. Even if it did, you'd be so egregiously sharp up high that crescents would be beyond pointless to attempt.

Just thought about something. The True-Tones has resonators, right? Mine has none... I recently worked on a friend's 1922 Buescher C-Mel, his had resonators... weird... I think someone removed them on mine... might that be the cause?!
Neither of mine (1919 and 1923) had resonators, at least not until I replaced some of the pads. Neither one had snap-in pads, either.
 
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