Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 142
  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    190
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    Has anyone tried one of these? I'm not sure if they just haven't been launched yet, or are just hard to get hold of at the moment:

    https://europe.yamaha.com/en/product...ova/index.html

    https://europe.yamaha.com/en/product...l#product-tabs

    I have yet to find out anything really useful about them - like a fingering chart, or whether or not they take a standard reed or mouthpiece. So far, they're just concentrating on cheesy "lifestyle" advertising, featuring twenty somethings.

    Yamaha claims a two octave range, but it remains to be seen whether that's complete (as opposed to with a gap, like a Xaphoon) and fully chromatic. The price looks promising though - 100 Euros (not too far off $100), or £100 in the UK (because the exchange rate is a lie and the pound is really only worth what you can get for it, which is about a dollar, in most cases).

    They've apparently made a shorter version of a C soprano, by putting lots of wiggles in the airway:



    There are some very poor quality videos about it, on Youtube - by which I mean they made them like a TV ad instead of product information, but this one is at least interesting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecp0FG01U3c

    It does kind of look like a knobbly plastic sax toy, but it seems like a more promising buy than the Nuvo jSax, and of course durable and light weight.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    SaxOnTheWeb.net
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    4,218
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    The most interesting thing about this instrument is the "branched-pipe" structure, which really does appear to be an innovation in woodwinds. There may be ways to incorporate that design into Yamaha's serious horns.

  4. #3

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    190
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    Fair enough. Yes, that is genuinely innovative - so much so that I can't picture what it does, exactly

  5. Remove Advertisements
    SaxOnTheWeb.net
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    raindog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    130
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    Cheap, lightweight (toy) pocket sax? If it's even remotely not-horrible-sounding, as durable as it looks, chromatic, and takes sop mouthpieces and reeds.. Sounds like a great little product.

    For an official marketing video this sounds pretty horrible, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdi14yxqvhw
    Tenor: Ida Maria Grassi "jade roller" + Ponzol M2 SS Soprano: Amati Kraslice Super Classic + Yammy 6C

  7. #5
    Hadamard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    1,386
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    Looks funny enough to want one
    In the 100€ they include a hard case, a mouthpiece that's probably identical to a soprano 4C and a synthetic reed... not a bad deal, after all.
    Fingerings are -reportedly- similar to recorder's so there's hope for a chromatic instrument...

  8. #6

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    190
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    Quote Originally Posted by raindog View Post
    For an official marketing video this sounds pretty horrible, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdi14yxqvhw
    Not as bad as when I attempt to play the oboe

    I like this one, especially the way they all giggle at the end:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7-uL93d2FY

    As it's Yamaha, I can sort of picture it working. Getting a more or less open hole instrument to play well chromatically, is not necessarily easy to achieve though. I'd be more confident if they actually claimed it did, and provided a fingering chart.

    Saying it's fingered "like" a recorder doesn't entirely fill me with confidence. They no doubt said the same about the Yamaha WX5 being fingered "like" a sax. It's not, trust me. It's similar, but the differences are significant. It's like learning to play a different instrument.

  9. #7
    Hadamard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    1,386
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy A1S View Post
    Saying it's fingered "like" a recorder doesn't entirely fill me with confidence. They no doubt said the same about the Yamaha WX5 being fingered "like" a sax. It's not, trust me. It's similar, but the differences are significant. It's like learning to play a different instrument.
    A good recorder can play chromatically. Not easy, but doable, and the hole layout makes me think that the Venova is indeed not designed differently. The four plastic keys seem designed for a chromatic instrument (each key is divided in two in the register where chromatism is utterly difficult on recorder). If I'm right a finger chart could be useless

    They had to "compress" a 60cm tube in a much shorter one, and they solved with a solution that was present in other ancient instrument (the serpent comes to mind).

    I'm a little puzzled about the "branched" design, as it doesn't seem that it works as a drone pipe. Maybe it just adds some "buzz" to a sound that would otherwise be too clarinet-like. I suspect it somehow makes the Venova to overblow an octave higher, instead than a 12th like it normally happens on a cylindrical tube.
    I read somewhere that a clarinet overblows at a 12th because the pressure node is very close to the tip of the mouthpiece (something like that) causing it to act as a closed tube when it's actually open. Maybe the Venova design is able to disrupt this behavior. And the instrument itself seems designed as an octave-overblown instrument...

  10. #8

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    190
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    In my brief experience of trying to make keyless flutes, and a partly finished (maybe never to be finished) simple system C bass clarinet, cross fingerings may not always work as you'd expect. It's something to do with the relationship of the bore diameter and the finger hole sizes - for example a big finger hole acts more like the end of the instrument, and isn't affected much by closing holes below that.

    I'm sure Yamaha have a much better idea of what they're doing than I do though I still don't really get why a fingering chart would be useless. Even different bass recorders have some differences from each other, on certain notes.

    I was assuming the Venova was conical bore, and I was starting to think the forked pipe might be to do with simplifying fingerings above A in the second octave - where recorders get a bit weird, and oboes have a second octave key, just for those few notes.

    You could well be right though - maybe it is cylindrical bore, and that's another way of getting the octave instead of the twelfth. The sound on those clips is more oboe or soprano sax than clarinet to me - the clarinet sound has to do with the twelfth being present, rather than the octave above the note being played.

  11. #9
    Hadamard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    1,386
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    We are clearly just speculating, but the more I look to the Venova the more I'm seeing it as a curvy tenor recorder that's played with a soprano sax mouthpiece... the key layout is virtually the same as a recorder and I can see no hint of a conical bore whatsoever.

    I can't see enough keys/holes to cover a 12th, so I assume it just overblows at the octave. If indeed the "proboscis" has the effect of making a "clarinet" to behave like an open hole tube it would justify a sound that's more similar to a soprano sax.

    The branched part is not used in fingerings and it's too long to behave like a tone hole. It's more like a giant octave pip.

    If only they made it one octave lower to accept tenor reeds...

  12. #10
    Hadamard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    1,386
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    By the way: I don't think that intonation of altered notes was a priority, in Yamaha, when they were designing a "casual" instrument...

  13. #11

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Nancy (France)
    Posts
    927
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadamard View Post
    A good recorder can play chromatically. Not easy, but doable, and the hole layout makes me think that the Venova is indeed not designed differently. The four plastic keys seem designed for a chromatic instrument (each key is divided in two in the register where chromatism is utterly difficult on recorder). If I'm right a finger chart could be useless

    They had to "compress" a 60cm tube in a much shorter one, and they solved with a solution that was present in other ancient instrument (the serpent comes to mind).

    (...)
    I read somewhere that a clarinet overblows at a 12th because the pressure node is very close to the tip of the mouthpiece (something like that) causing it to act as a closed tube when it's actually open. Maybe the Venova design is able to disrupt this behavior. And the instrument itself seems designed as an octave-overblown instrument...
    In fact, the clarinet is (almost) closed at the mouthpiece end. So, there is a pressure antinode (and displacement node) at the tip. On the other hand, for a conical bore, the relevant quantity is not the pressure p but the product rp of the pressure p by the distance r to the apex of the cone; though this apex is not the mouthpiece tip, practically (given the extra volume in the mouthpiece, which replaces the missing portion of the cone) the mouthpiece tip is a node for the product rp.

    My curiosity is also piqued by this "branched" design!

  14. #12
    Forum Contributor 2017 BrianMitchellBrody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    6,481
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    I like this alot. I think my 5 year old would dig this. I am trying to find different instruments that are lightweight and fun to get him started since an alto is too heavy and soprano is not for beginners.

    I am also thinking Vibrato sax.

    B
    �We are what we repeatedly do.
    Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit.�
    ~Aristotle

  15. #13

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    4,218
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    Does this mean that Yamaha is going into the synth reed manufacturing business? Or is an outside company supplying the reed?

  16. #14
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    32,626
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    It looks like Yamaha is marketing this especially towards the “ hipsters” market.


    Actually I’d like to see how this performs against the Nuvo JSax.

    I believe that the Nuvo sounds a LOT better than this Venova ( might be the player though)

    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some dont. Those who have the cherries arent likely to share them though.

  17. #15

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    190
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadamard View Post
    By the way: I don't think that intonation of altered notes was a priority, in Yamaha, when they were designing a "casual" instrument...
    I hope that's not the case, but saxophones have pretty poor intonation generally, IMHO Within reason, I could probably live with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alain Gen View Post
    for a conical bore, the relevant quantity is not the pressure p but the product rp of the pressure p by the distance r to the apex of the cone; though this apex is not the mouthpiece tip, practically (given the extra volume in the mouthpiece, which replaces the missing portion of the cone) the mouthpiece tip is a node for the product rp.

    My curiosity is also piqued by this "branched" design!
    I really ought to read up on the physics of that. I've started looking a couple of times, but never found anything that looked useful, and didn't tax my admittedly poor attention span too much

    Yes, I'm really curious about the branched bit. I'm tempted to experiment now, but I'll have to wait til the neighbours are out.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianMitchellBrody View Post
    I like this alot. I think my 5 year old would dig this. I am trying to find different instruments that are lightweight and fun to get him started since an alto is too heavy and soprano is not for beginners.

    I am also thinking Vibrato sax.

    B
    I'd strongly advise against the Vibrato sax. I bought one as my first sax, untried, and it was a bad idea. My second sax was a cheap Chinese "Venus" curved soprano, which it turns out leaked below low D, but was still a much better buy, as well as being considerably cheaper and arguably more child sized.

    If not this, then maybe consider the Nuvo Clarineo (similar price) if you want something fairly robust that actually plays - by all accounts. I haven't tried one, though I do own the predecessor - the Lyons clarinet. Unfortunately, the keywork on mine was pretty worn out when I got it. The tone is nice though. Or the jSax, I guess, or the Nuvo Dood, which is a one octave chalumeau (forerunner of the clarinet). Those are very cheap, and kid friendly.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostConn View Post
    Does this mean that Yamaha is going into the synth reed manufacturing business? Or is an outside company supplying the reed?
    I wondered that too. Mostly, I'm just concerned that it might not be a standard sized reed, so we'd be locked into their choices - or forced to cut our own, which is a bit beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    It looks like Yamaha is marketing this especially towards the “ hipsters” market.


    Actually I’d like to see how this performs against the Nuvo JSax.

    I believe that the Nuvo sounds a LOT better than this Venova ( might be the player though)
    I find the hipster based element of their advertising quite annoying. I don't have anything against hipsters, but I don't need to be told how it will improve my social life, enhance all those picnics and days at the beach, I'm constantly having or make life better in general; I want actual specs and product information.

    Some of the Korg advertising on Youtube has been just as bad. They don't seem to get that we're watching it because we want to learn more about it - they're still going for the TV ad style big sell. Trying to contact them to find out more is an exercise in frustration too.

    The geek with the glasses implying it was all very sciencey was okay, and I liked the Japanese student types who seemed to have some experience of woodwind, but not much on that particular instrument.

    The thing that bothers me about the Nuvo jSax is the 1.5 octave range. That takes me back to the first couple of months teaching myself to play a clarinet - which has the same range until you learn to use the register key. Two octaves is a lot more like it - my range on a trumpet or cornet is not a lot more than that, most days, but I still have fun playing them.

    It may well be down to the player. I've heard some impressive demos of the Xaphoon, for example, but when I actually tried one in a shop I had a religious experience; specifically, I said "Oh god, no!", and handed it back.

    I would guess the mouthpiece too. One of the few bits of spec we do know is that the mouthpiece is a 4C equivalent (which makes me worry that it can't take a standard sop sax or clarinet mouthpiece). That's a very narrow opening, and only suited to certain styles of playing, like classical or maybe some sort of 30s jazz. That would influence the sound of the instrument a lot, compared to a more open one with a softer reed.

  18. #16

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    190
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    I forgot: there are more pictures of it, with some good details of the keywork, here:

    http://fr.audiofanzine.com/instrumen...y,n.36418.html


  19. #17
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    32,626
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    there is an high novelty value with all these things.

    The production cost of the Yamaha is extreme low and is mostly in the mold. Once it is produced in high numbers the price per units is laughable (like their 4C mouthpiece!)

    Given their incredible distribution network they will be able to promote this together with their line of plastic flutes.

    For sure this will be a better instrument than most for educational purposes.

    Yet, I seriously don’t understand their marketing towards the hipsters and the definition “ casual wind instrument” shown next to the ukulele at a picnic.

    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some dont. Those who have the cherries arent likely to share them though.

  20. #18

    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    I suspect that the branched tube may, in fact, cause this thing to overblow at the octave. A flute is a cylinder that overblows at the octave; the clarinet is a cylinder that overblows at the twelfth. As I understand it, the closed (well, nearly) tip of the clarinet mouthpiece makes it behave as a cylinder closed at one end; whereas the displacement of the flute embouchure hole from the upper end of the tube makes it behave as a cylinder open at both ends; which overblows at the octave, like a cone closed at one end (oboe, saxophone, bassoon (kinda)).

    If it overblows at the octave, wouldn't that also imply that the overtone series would be more like that of a cone closed at one end (in other words, more like a sax) and less like a cylinder closed at one end (in other words, a clarinet)? So I would guess on the basis on absolutely no other information whatsoever, and certainly without ever having heard it, that this thing might sound more sax-like than clarinet-like.

  21. #19
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    32,626
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    did you hear its sound? It is really neither. Maybe oboe like, at best. More reminiscent of some Chinese reed instrument.







    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some dont. Those who have the cherries arent likely to share them though.

  22. #20

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Nancy (France)
    Posts
    927
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Yamaha Venova YVS-100 - semi keyless C soprano

    Quote Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
    I suspect that the branched tube may, in fact, cause this thing to overblow at the octave. A flute is a cylinder that overblows at the octave; the clarinet is a cylinder that overblows at the twelfth. As I understand it, the closed (well, nearly) tip of the clarinet mouthpiece makes it behave as a cylinder closed at one end; whereas the displacement of the flute embouchure hole from the upper end of the tube makes it behave as a cylinder open at both ends; which overblows at the octave, like a cone closed at one end (oboe, saxophone, bassoon (kinda)).

    If it overblows at the octave, wouldn't that also imply that the overtone series would be more like that of a cone closed at one end (in other words, more like a sax) and less like a cylinder closed at one end (in other words, a clarinet)? So I would guess on the basis on absolutely no other information whatsoever, and certainly without ever having heard it, that this thing might sound more sax-like than clarinet-like.
    Yes, if the instrument overblows at the octave, the overtones with frequency an even multiple of the fundamental should be present in the overtone series. I like your idea that the branched design can be compared with a flute (cylinder opened at both ends) with a different excitation mechanism.

Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts