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How can I practice being able to play a good solo that tells a story and develops?

11K views 101 replies 40 participants last post by  Johnny Murgatroyd 
#1 ·
I have many aspects of playing down. I know many licks in all 12 keys, I know almost all of my scales, a pretty good ear and I have good technique. The problem is, that although I hit the changes, I am told by my teacher that my solos have no direction and I am not telling a very convincing story. I sort of know what he means, but I am just having a hard time being able to practice improvisation with that mindset. The way I practice is I break a tune up into 4 bar phrases and loop it on iRealB and once I feel comfortable with those changes, I move onto the next batch and put it all together at the end. I can now see how this has the potential to put one in a very structured mindset, as opposed to one that thinks of the piece as a whole and develops a proper "solo arch". This storytelling thing is especially difficult for me in up-tempo tunes with constant chord changes such as Bolivia or Giant Steps.

Sorry for the long post guys.

Basically, I am asking of good ways to practice achieving a storytelling aspect in a solo that develops well and leaves the listener interested throughout. Also, what should I be thinking to myself as I am soloing, to avoid being consumed by the changes, rather than having control over my solo?

Thanks for any help guys!
 
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#2 ·
Basically, I am asking of good ways to practice achieving a storytelling aspect in a solo that develops well and leaves the listener interested throughout. Also, what should I be thinking to myself as I am soloing, to avoid being consumed by the changes, rather than having control over my solo?
The key is to think like a composer and use composition tools. Like repeating and developing on a melodic motif or fragment. Obviously in an improvised solo you won't necessarily do it in such a structured or precise way. But listen to how Sonny Rollins plays a two-note motif at the beginning of St. Thomas, then kicks it around a bit. And it comes back every now and again.

To do this this you no longer overthink the changes and licks. If something doesn't quite technically fit, but makes sense logically and melodically (e.g. an answer to a question) then it can still work really well, and get closer to what you mean by telling a story.

Don't be scared to repeat motifs, either exactly, or change a few notes to fit the chord or transpose to fit the chord.

But also think about melodic contours, so instead of notes you think pictorially of the pitch rising and falling. That way you can repeat or invert the contour - this certainly helps you to make the solo more of a "conversation" without getting bogged down in playing "right notes"

Likewise find some rhythmic motifs and repeat/develop.
 
#4 ·
Thank you for responding, Pete.

Are there any specific things I can do in the practice room to get a better hold of this? The repeated motif thing is difficult for me and my mind always wants to forget it and get to a new idea or play a lick that i know.
 
#3 ·
Try taking a few lessons with Tim Price via Skype if your not close to him, he is all about telling a story in your solo. If that is not possible
check out some of his free online lessons, he is pretty reasonable though, hope this helps. Jay.
 
#7 ·
A good story moves forward and keeps the listener or reader interested in what is going on. The timeline usually continues relating the current line or sentence to the prior sentence while introducing something new. If I start a story with:

The man sat in his car feeling exhausted. He put the key in the ignition but stopped short of starting his car as he thought about the last hour of his life. That women was tough! None of the others were that difficult to kill...........

Think of every line you play as a sentence. The sentences above are connected to each other to begin a story. The first line sets a scene. The second line gives you an action relating back to the car in line one. You wonder why the man is exhausted and the second line tells you he thinks about the last hour. What happened in the last hour. Third line: something about a tough women. What on earth is this about? Fourth line: What! He killed her? Others? He killed many women? Where is this story going.......

Now relating back to music, your issue probably relates to telling a story like this:

The man sat in his car feeling exhausted. The fire truck is red. Sally likes mustard. I rounded third base heading for home...........

This is what a listener hears when you play four licks that you have learned that are not related too each other, uninspired by each other, not influenced by one another. It is hard to keep track or understand the point. It is tiring to listen to.

When you are playing you have to analyze the story you are creating. Play the first phrase. Stop and ask yourself. What did I just say? What is my starting scene? What is the basis that this next 12-16 bars will be based on?

Now, Play the next line? Stop. How is it connected to the first line? How is it related? What common theme did it continue on? How did it build or create more interest?

If you can't answer these questions then you have to try again until you can. Go through the next 16 bars like that. The next section switch to another theme and start again. To me that is like starting a new paragraph. Great players do this. Start analyzing solos and see if you can spot and highlight paragraphs in the music where a certain theme is being developed. This is musical storytelling.............
 
#8 ·
I think the real answer to the story-telling issue is having great fluency with your vocabulary and topic. Then you can get down to the business of telling that creative story that develops a subject or follows a story line.

Now obviously part of the musical vocabulary consists of the knowledge of scales of arpeggios and how they work through tonal centers. Your topic of conversation includes the melody of the tune, the chord changes, form, tonal centers, etc.

Your objective is to tell a story that turns the vocabulary into a language, allowing you to speak (or play in the case of jazz improvisation) with fluency throughout your musical topic. Then you're able to create phrases and musical paragraphs that use the familiar phrasing tools of sequencing, motif and development, etc., without having to focus only on playing the changes. This means knowing the chords in their surroundings- knowing the common tones and changing tones not just on adjacent chords, but throughout sections and tonalities of tunes is part of this.

I often gauge my ability to play a tune on a comparison to my ability to play the blues. I've been playing the blues my entire life- in jazz settings, rock settings, blues settings, heck, even in country and western settings. When I feel I know a tune and changes as well as I know a good old B flat blues, then I feel I know it. Until then, I'm still learning it.

Randy Hunter
www.beginningsax.com
www.randyhunterjazz.com
 
#9 ·
Listen to some greats working their craft.

Check out Clifford Jordan with Carmen McRae singing Monk.

 
#12 ·
Even if you're not a s good singer sit at a keyboard, hold a chord and sing some notes.
Don't worry at first about what the notes are just sing a short phrase over and over changing it until it sounds goods.
Then figure it out on your sax and play it. Sing a new phrase to follow the first...
The ear and fingers will start to synchronize.
This was taught in an improv class I took at CSUN by a pianist (I forget his name, not Lou Levy) who sometimes played with Supersax.
 
#19 ·
Seems like a good idea for practicing ear training, but how exactly will this help with building a story?

A good story moves forward and keeps the listener or reader interested in what is going on. The timeline usually continues relating the current line or sentence to the prior sentence while introducing something new. If I start a story with:

The man sat in his car feeling exhausted. He put the key in the ignition but stopped short of starting his car as he thought about the last hour of his life. That women was tough! None of the others were that difficult to kill...........

Think of every line you play as a sentence. The sentences above are connected to each other to begin a story. The first line sets a scene. The second line gives you an action relating back to the car in line one. You wonder why the man is exhausted and the second line tells you he thinks about the last hour. What happened in the last hour. Third line: something about a tough women. What on earth is this about? Fourth line: What! He killed her? Others? He killed many women? Where is this story going.......

Now relating back to music, your issue probably relates to telling a story like this:

The man sat in his car feeling exhausted. The fire truck is red. Sally likes mustard. I rounded third base heading for home...........

This is what a listener hears when you play four licks that you have learned that are not related too each other, uninspired by each other, not influenced by one another. It is hard to keep track or understand the point. It is tiring to listen to.

When you are playing you have to analyze the story you are creating. Play the first phrase. Stop and ask yourself. What did I just say? What is my starting scene? What is the basis that this next 12-16 bars will be based on?

Now, Play the next line? Stop. How is it connected to the first line? How is it related? What common theme did it continue on? How did it build or create more interest?

If you can't answer these questions then you have to try again until you can. Go through the next 16 bars like that. The next section switch to another theme and start again. To me that is like starting a new paragraph. Great players do this. Start analyzing solos and see if you can spot and highlight paragraphs in the music where a certain theme is being developed. This is musical storytelling.............
I really like this analogy. Lets say I have a phrase that consists mainly of lines of eighth notes. Is the only way to connect the next phrase to this one by creating a linear shape that follows the ups and downs of the previous?
 
#13 ·
I've heard what you (the OP) are questioning . . . someone stands up in the section, the band director shoves the mic down the bell of the horn, and then the audience is subjected to a whirlwind of nonsensical notes which show great technique but absolutely nothing "musical."

MY suggestion is to know the melody of the tune to which you are trying to improvise. True, given the material being presented these days to large reading bands, it may be difficult to identify the melody from the multi-instrument whirlwind of notes the composer/arranger intended to be played. Seems the actual composition often matches what the soloists play.

Find the melody, play a little melody, expand on that melody a bit and voila! You'll have a solo that tells a story. DAVE
 
#14 ·
Every story starts with a beginning. How can you draw an audience in? Maybe you want to start very quietly and sustain a note...as your solo progresses, you want it to go somewhere, so maybe you bring up the intensity with a crescendo or by playing longer phrases or more actively (eighth notes as opposed to half notes, for example.) As you continue, don't forget to leave some space in between your ideas to give people a chance to assimilate what you just played and repetition is good because it gives the audience something to hold on to so they make the journey with you. Eventually, you'll probably want to hit some sort of peak before wrapping it up and transitioning to the solo by the next player.

Think about pacing yourself and building to something, rather than just noodling up and down a scale. A solo is more than just the notes you play. It's also how you play them and what you don't play. And yes, as others, have said, listen to the greats. One of my favorite "storytellers" is Miles Davis. Check out Autumn Leaves from Cannonball Adderley's "Something Else" to hear a masterclass on how to build a solo. (Cannonball is also great at this.)



Matter of fact, that entire album is packed with exquisite musicianship, I recommend you listen to it every day for a few weeks. Some of the better blues guitarists are also masters of dynamics and building a solo - dudes like Albert Collins. Don't just listen to saxophonists, although listen to them too!
 
#18 ·
Thank you for all the information guys! Just a couple of questions on my end.

First, am I wrong to say that someone like Coltrane is not the best to listen to in terms of gradual development? I may be new at listening for it, but for some reason in most of Trane's solos, it appears that he goes in heavy and ends heavy.

Also, how would one be able to effectively build a decent story if you are just given a single chorus to solo over?
 
#21 ·
First, am I wrong to say that someone like Coltrane is not the best to listen to in terms of gradual development? I may be new at listening for it, but for some reason in most of Trane's solos, it appears that he goes in heavy and ends heavy.
Agree - trying to learn to play a solo from Coltrane is like sipping from a fire hose.

Did you listen to any of the Carmen McRae/Clifford Jordan above?
 
#20 ·
Quit trying to dazzle your fellow bandmates. Instead, focus on the audience. The listeners will appreciate something melodic and they are the ones who care. You and your bandmates are there to please the audience, not each other. SO, play sweet, play melodically, and give up the standard licks that do nothing to complement the melody. Listen to Johnny Hodges with the Ellington orchestra. DAVE
 
#22 ·
Quit trying to dazzle your fellow bandmates. Instead, focus on the audience. The listeners will appreciate something melodic and they are the ones who care. You and your bandmates are there to please the audience, not each other. SO, play sweet, play melodically, and give up the standard licks that do nothing to complement the melody. Listen to Johnny Hodges with the Ellington orchestra. DAVE
Amen.

Ever listen to Chris Potter and walk away whistling or humming what you just heard?

Seldom. Maybe just not.
 
#26 ·
" . . . lacking some of the most important aspects of improvisation . . .". Just what ARE the most important aspects of improv? THAT is very subjective. Who decides who is lacking anything when what is being played is enjoyed by those in the audience?

Once one strays from the written page, improv is at work. Listen to Willie Nelson's guitar-playing . . . nothing fancy but every note perfectly placed and appropriate.

You'd be better off playing an almost straight melody with gorgeous tone and perfect intonation as opposed to a stream of hemisemidemiquavers that create musical chaos. DAVE
 
#29 ·
" . . . lacking some of the most important aspects of improvisation . . .". Just what ARE the most important aspects of improv? THAT is very subjective. Who decides who is lacking anything when what is being played is enjoyed by those in the audience?

Once one strays from the written page, improv is at work. Listen to Willie Nelson's guitar-playing . . . nothing fancy but every note perfectly placed and appropriate.

You'd be better off playing an almost straight melody with gorgeous tone and perfect intonation as opposed to a stream of hemisemidemiquavers that create musical chaos. DAVE
This is a great point. Many times I tell students to forget playing a solo and improvise a melody. Play something simple and melodic over the changes. You could spend an eternity on a desert island practicing just this. In my mind it's a lot harder than playing every lick you have learned that is for sure........
 
#35 ·
Very good advice for sure.

Student seemed to play really well to me. A lot of stuff tends to go over my head but I thought he sounded great at the beginning. But Bob being the master teacher he is was able to hoan in right on something student needed to work on and you could tell he was having issues putting it into context that first time around. Although nerves could be a factor too.

Nice clip.
 
#37 ·
Ok, can someone help me out here. I'm trying to see how Bob Mintzer is developing a solo here:



I don't see very much contrast, just lines of eighth notes. I can't really follow the story or anything. Is it supposed to be like this?

Edit: Actually, not sure if the first soloist is Brecker or Mintzer
 
#41 ·
Ok, so you are asking about a tune that is probably the hardest example of a tune to play a melodic solo on. Giant Steps. First because it is really fast and second because the chords are changing every two beat on average. I would not use this tune as an example of how to play melodically. Bob Mintzer goes first and then Brecker and they handle it masterfully but the faster the tempo and the faster the changes the harder it is to tell a story.
 
#38 ·
Great question and great discussion and insights.

Consider taking just one of those licks and playing it through a tune changing it to fit the changes. Or take two licks: first lick on the first chord, second lick on second chord, first lick on 3rd chord, etc. developing a call-and-response sensitivity.
 
#39 ·
I would recommend checking out Louis Armstrong's solos and intros on two albums:

"Louis Armstrong plays WC Handy"
and
"Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington".

Never a lot of notes, but each note is perfectly placed and with so much command and confidence that it sounds like no other note could ever have been played there.
 
#42 ·
Think about the lyrics and sing them your own way.

(If there are no lyrics, make some up.)

There is your story.

Build in two points of view and resolve them.

There is another story.

Start with the amorphous and turn it into a structure.

That makes a good story.

Alternate the predictable with the surprising.

Visualize a real story to play a story.
 
#45 ·
ikema781



I genuinely like the tribute.

(But maybe not if I had heard it first without listening to the original guy and thinking about him.)

At first I thought he was having us on.

Then I thought, "I wonder how many people hear jazz solos exactly this way?"

After I suppose hundreds of examples, all of that time and energy, I wondered if the fellow had any choice in the matter.

Everyone brings themselves into every bit of art they consider, and so it is with the tribute.

The sense of being trapped and limited, the futility of trying to escape what you cannot change.

Well, I am perfectly willing to accept the conclusion that all of that is in my head, too.

But somebody found what it took to take the same noodle, over and over, and change it from a painful torture to a thought provoking desolation.

Stories.
 
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