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Tenor: to battle or not to battle

2K views 12 replies 13 participants last post by  Isle of Jazz 
#1 ·
Do you like tenor battles? I am curious what you think of them. They don't work for me, or at least they only very rarely do. I am wondering if my preference for tenor sax players is a determining factor.

For instance, there is this often referenced clip of Tina Brooks vs David 'Fathead' Newman:

There is also this extensively discussed clip of Joshua Redman vs James Carter:

I prefer Tina Brooks to David 'Fathead' Newman and like Joshua Redman orders of magnitude more than James Carter.

I could't even imagine how short Joe Henderson, one of my very, very favorite tenor saxophonists, would come up in a tenor battle.

When I first reflected on this, I thought that perhaps it said something about a preference for Lester Young relative to Coleman Hawkins style sax players. However, I don't think it is that simplistic, because I love the playing of Coleman Hawkins and several that followed in his footsteps.

Anyone else feel the same way about tenor battles? Again, I am not saying there is anything wrong with them. It would be ludicrous for someone like me to make that statement. However, I tend to have broad tastes in music and cannot pin down why the style doesn't work for me, besides perhaps that the element of competition is not how I think of music.

Any thoughts?

Thank you.

PS: the lack of a poll is deliberate and not an oversight.
 
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#6 ·
When I was in junior high a pro wrestler came at lunch time and gave a talk on his profession.
I have no idea why he did it but it was interesting. He had goat blood lozenges that he dissolved in his mouth and spat out for effect ( why goat?).
Also he had a hidden razor blade that he used to slice his hairline so blood would trickle down his face.
All this while we 12-13 year olds ate lunch in 1967.
 
#3 ·
Well, it's a loaded question isn't it. I think anytime you get to dueling anythings, there's always the possibility that things can escalate into a honking/screeching contest of little value.

However, some of my favorite recordings involve situations with a couple great sax players "locking horns"... Dexter Gordon-Wardell Gray, Sonny Side Up, Boss Tenors, Tenor Legacy (Joe Lovano-Joshua Redman), the recordings Pete Christlieb did with Warne Marsh.

There certainly is a tradition of friendly competition, in fact some players like Sonny Stitt seem to come alive at the prospect of being challenged. I think the real trick is transcending the competitive aspect of it and creating a performance of musical value with the excitement of two guys trying to one-up one another. That can certainly create a fun atmosphere!

As far as Joe Henderson, I think a lot of players would have a difficult time keeping up with Joe. He's such a badass and can turn on a dime and go in another direction with so much ease.
 
#7 ·
I'd have to say "it depends." On the players, their attitude, skill level, etc. The best 'battles' are between good players who aren't so much battling each other as they are encouraging and inspiring each other to reach for the sky, so to speak. That can be exhilarating to witness.

There certainly is a tradition of friendly competition, in fact some players like Sonny Stitt seem to come alive at the prospect of being challenged. I think the real trick is transcending the competitive aspect of it and creating a performance of musical value with the excitement of two guys trying to one-up one another. That can certainly create a fun atmosphere!
And not all players want to do battle. I clearly remember one night at Keystone Korner when Sonny Stitt was playing a set and he invited Yusef Lateef up on the stand. They both played a solo, then Sonny wanted to trade 4s with Yusef and Yusef wouldn't do it. At the time, I wished he had, but I respect him for making his own decision.
 
#5 ·
My favorite "tenor battle" is probably Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis and Johnny Griffin. They partnered for an amazing string of albums and I think Jaws said it best:

"No, it’s not really a battle at all. What we are doing is presenting, side by side, two different styles of playing tenor—a contrast, not a contest. The idea is to stimulate creation, not hinder it.”
 
#8 ·
Battle? No thanks.

I would much prefer a collaborative effort to make music the focus.

Ex. "Horn to Horn" - Houston Person AND (not vs) Teddy Edwards.

 
#9 ·
I agree with the sentiment that competition isn't something I care to see in music, at least someone trying to best someone else. I love to watch and listen to artists who enjoy playing together and are enjoying that experience and making good music together. I enjoy the differences in players and their varied styles, tone, and ideas. If there's a presumed winner I think I'm not interested. I like the quote Mr. Bluenote posted from Lockjaw Davis.
 
#10 ·
Music is a collaboration between individuals that is greater than the sum of it's parts. Tenor battles?? Give me a break. I'd rather watch mud wrestling.

What's next...putting a group of musicians on a desert island with only their instruments...
 
#12 ·
It's funny: most jazz tends to feature different musicians playing consecutive solos, and if that's happening on the same instrument, you can call it a "battle" or a "summit" or whatever. I mean, we don't say Miles "battles" Coltrane on "So What," but if you put two tenor players on the same track everybody starts saying they're "jousting" or "battling" or whatever.

Because I really, really like tenor saxophones, I enjoy a number of recordings that feature more than one tenor, including the Dexter/Wardell "battles," the Eddie Griffin/"Lockjaw" Davis series, Sonny Stitt/Gene Ammons, the Michael Brecker/Don Mintzer record, the Gillespie/Rollins/Stitt record, and probably others I'm not remembering right now. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes these kind of records do have an element of competition, and you do get the sense that guys are trying to outdo one another. I wouldn't want a steady diet of that kind of playing, but it can be great fun once in awhile. If you can't dig hearing Stitt and Rollins go at each other, that's OK. To each his own.
 
#13 ·
Zoot and Al...'nuff said?

Actually, I like albums with two tenors who complement and contrast with each other. Three tenors is fine. Four is great.
Here are five!

I think the "real" tenor battles that occurred live, on the bandstand, back "in the day", must have been pretty exciting - if you like that sort of thing. Here's a "fake" one that's still fun.
 
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