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Super 20 and VI question

9K views 50 replies 14 participants last post by  Tryptykon 
#1 ·
I've played VI altos for many years but after switching my tenor over to a series 2 Super 20 from a VI I was hoping to be really knocked out by a Series 2 Super 20 alto I bought. The tenor was set up by George Bunk at Sax Quest ..it's the second S20 tenor I've had off George Bunk and they both have that instant mojo. That instant turbo charged vibe. I don't practice tenor anymore..I don't need to..I just play it and it's there. My Series 2 alto had been set up in the US by a name guy but to be frank it was not good..so I took it to my man here who I have used for decades and is excellent. Total repad and set up. It plays well but I just have this doubt that its potential isn't being released fully... it is resonant and plays top to bottom,,it doesn't really sing like my tenor... my VI alto has more projection and raw power. I'm using the same piece on both obviously. I prefer the King in some ways but I don't feel I'm getting out of it what I'm putting in.

I know some guys do prefer an S20 tenor but a VI alto... Kim Richmond springs to mind and there are others...some on here I am arranging to send my King alto to George Bunk at Sax Quest which is a pain living in England but I will know instantly when I get it back if it has more mojo. For my peace of mind I think I'll have to do it. Any experienced players on both horns got any useful insights....Not the usual alto jibes from tenor players unless you really can't resist. I love and play both and appreciate their traditions. Thankyou
 
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#2 ·
<jibe suppression = ON>

Michael,

I had a Super 20 some years ago, when I still had a need for playing alto, and I much preferred it over the '65 Mk VI that I owned. It had much the different voice as personified in the tenors. If I were playing alto in a circumstance where I had to blend in a section, I might lean toward a Selmer (Serie II or Mk VI), but for solo blowing or working in a small ensemble where a lil' wilder presence was welcome, I would find another Super 20.

And yes, you may need to pay attention to matching a mouthpiece to the Super 20, rather than using your Mk VI's preference.

Regards,

George
 
#5 ·
I have a series 2 S20 alto. I also have a 198k series 1a S20 alto. The 1a has been properly set up by Shelly Tenabe and the series 2 has a good pad-job but with Selmer type domed resos. Both horns play very well indeed, and the pitch on the series 2 is better than the 1a. If your series 2 isn't up to snuff, it may require the neck to be re-bored to factory specs. Occasionally King altos with sterling necks suffer from neck distortion. There's a cat in the USA who specialises in King neck restoration. Aaron Barnard http://www.barnardrepair.com

Perhaps Mike Barnes, who I believe is in the south of England or in the West Country, will have some insight.

Anyway, I don't know of anyone who would prefer a Selmer mk6 to a King alto for sound. For pitch, and overall versatility, the Selmer is probably more reliable than the King, but for personality, depth of tone, a solid palm-key register, and the special "buttery" quality, the King should outshine the Selmer. Kings are somewhat quirky and, if not set up properly, can be difficult.
 
#6 ·
I'm in the same situation. My mk VI was done 9 times last year and it sounded 9 times very different. Two times is sounded really great (and of course when I bought it) except the thing was gurgling like hell.The last time it was done very good but it just hasn't that sound why i bought it for and can't see what's wrong with it. The only thing I can think of are the resonators. Don't know what to do . Spend another 650euros for overhaul or just buy something else?
So in the meantime I'm trying different saxophones now and had a good vibe with some kings super 20 and in two weeks I get a late silversonic to try. I'm very curious.
 
#18 ·
I'm in the same situation. My mk VI was done 9 times last year and it sounded 9 times very different. Two times is sounded really great (and of course when I bought it) except the thing was gurgling like hell.
Maybe a bit off topic, but am I reading this right?! You had your VI overhauled 9 times in one year?

Man, I'd say you need to find a different tech for sure. Even if you had to take it in for something short of a complete overhaul 9 times in a 12 month period suggests your tech is not getting the job done, to say the least!

Back on topic, I can't speak on the altos (although I bet the same general idea holds), but I've play-tested a number of Super 20 tenors and each and every one was different. A couple of them couldn't compete in any way with my VI (or my Buescher), but one silversonic was a definite contender; in fact it was one of the best horns I've ever tried. So they just aren't all the same; you have to try before you buy.
 
#7 ·
Thankyou for the responses. I've been up and down with my long bow VI alto since I got it as a closet horn in the 80's.. a neck change really improved the palm key intonation but still my heart wasn't in it though I remained a die hard Selmer acolyte. I had bought a Series 3 Super 20 tenor around the same time but I wasn't impressed and went back to a VI tenor which I still have. It wasn't until I got a Series 1A tenor from Sax Quest set up by George Bunk I really got the S20 " thing" .. that horn I sold because of the agricultural little finger mech and the wild palm keys.. I got a Series 2tenor and that horn blew me away and is my tenor though I still have my VI

On the alto.. I had a mint series 1 S20 alto which didn't impress me. It had been set up in the US. The excellent German player I sold it too had it redone because he said it had the wrong pads and now really played.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think the S20 needs setting up by a tech who really knows these horns. A Selmer they are not. As for pieces I think the Meyer design is pretty standard for S20's and Selmer altos.
 
#8 ·
I changed my VI alto for a Yamaha 62 purple label around 3 years ago and I have never even missed it, but I believe the S20 alto is the best thing I have tried so far(in alto). I just wish I could get one in good condition for a reasonable price and I would send this Yamaha for a trip. I second the mouthpiece advice about the s20. If it helps let me tell you that a close friend of my uses a Navarro maestra and I tried my TK acoustimax on it and they both match that horn perfectly, but even he fell in love with my ted klum. It feels like if it was made for that horn.
 
#11 ·
Good and well-set-up examples of these two shine in their own ways. The Super 20 will have a noticeably bigger sound, open feel, and will act like it can easily blow the roof off the club. The VI will have a nice centered core, more focused and buzzy sound that can make make a drink ripple from a few tables over.

I have one of each right now, both with fresh overhauls and both playing to the top of their potential. The Selmer feels more refined -- but I'm more used to that keywork and a couple hours on the S20 would be all I need to feel at home. And, contrary to what a lot of people say / believe, the King plays with better intonation than the VI.

Here's my video comparison hot off the press:

 
#17 ·
Actually you gave me a terrific idea. I have never played a king Zephyr really but several guys believe they are almost the same as S20, just the key positioning is the difference. They have a better price than the super 20 so I am hunting a Zephyr. Thanks a lot.
 
#21 ·
Great replies.. If any real expert can give me King Super 20 alto key heights I would be very grateful. Series 2 early model

Actually today I was recording on my record and I took in my VI and it played just so well. I have been using my Theo Wanne Gaia 2 and this is for those only familiar with the original Gaia a really fantastic take on the Meyer.
 
#32 ·
Yes JL, it was about a mk VI. Im thinking about a new set up on this horn cause it definitely can play much darker.
A pity that most of these guys doing pad jobs can't play the saxophone.
Also i find it very surprising that they don't know the measurements of key heights for all these different saxophones. Isn't that something you can ask your colleague or Napbirt otherwise to find on internet or whatever? Probably a big secret.
I guess Michael is very lucky that Instrument Attic is willing to share them.
 
#33 ·
A pity that most of these guys doing pad jobs can't play the saxophone.
Also i find it very surprising that they don't know the measurements of key heights for all these different saxophones.
Not sure what guys you mean (probably the ones that tried to fix your horn?). Every good tech I know can play the saxophone and knows how to set key heights. It's very true you have to find a good, reputable tech and be willing to pay them what they are worth!
 
#36 ·
Actually I just trying one the other day. It wasn't in good condition really but it sounded great. I will take my time to find a jewel since I don't play alto really often anyway.
 
#37 ·
If you are looking for an alto that will complement your Ref 36, consider also a Buescher TH&C or Super 400 (the one that has the bell keys and tone ring of the TH&C).
 
#46 ·
Well to be honest I have been a bit lazy "alto-wise" recently. I tried 2 and sounded fantastic but unfortunately none of them was for sale. I am glad you liked that combo with the acoustimax. That piece sounds great on anything but it matches those vintage American horns like no other.
 
#47 ·
Big thanks to Instrument Attic... I finally got in the studio with my King S20 Series 2 alto which I had altered the venting to match the openings supplied by Instrument Attic... Man what a difference... the horn now has all the mojo and projection I was expecting when I got the horn. It was nothing like as good as my Series 2 tenor set up by George Bunk at Sax Quest... now I would say it is matched and playing at it's full potential. Cheers
 
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