Faster Articulation?

[Subcontra Meatstompr]

I can tongue but what are the best methods to achieving rapid tonging such as 16th notes at 120-130? Sometimes my tongue would not move as fast as I want. Mainly on lower pitched saxes.

[theneighbordubh]

Air flow and maintenance. For me it's not like riding a bike. After a while of no practice my articulation rapidly declines. There's also the "ta ka ta ka" method I haven't quite mastered yet.

[Christian1]

Air flow and maintenance. For me it's not like riding a bike. After a while of no practice my articulation rapidly declines. There's also the "ta ka ta ka" method I haven't quite mastered yet.

That would be double tonguing.

[bandmommy]

Tongues can articulate only so fast. They have a speed limit.
Staying relaxed and articulating lightly helps, but once you reach your personal speed limit that's it.
Learning to double tongue might help, but it's hard to do cleanly on a reed instrument.

[forreals]

As others have mentioned, tonguing lightly will help you articulate more efficiently. A lot of people are unaware that they are tonguing too hard. I had to break that habit.

[MrBlueNote]

A lot of people are unaware that they are tonguing too hard. I had to break that habit.

Any tips or exercises that helped you overcome this?

[Billy Baggins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgSETyVs5GM

Booker Ervin had a novel approach to fast tonguing. Check out @ 1:50.

[forreals]

Any tips or exercises that helped you overcome this?

I think it takes a long period of consciously tonguing lightly. I still sometimes forget when I'm playing loudly. To me that is the struggle: separating volume with things like tonguing too hard or grabbing the keys too hard.

As far as the OP is concerned, tonguing sixteenth notes at 120 seems doable. Is there a passage where you have many continuous sixteenth notes that need to be tongued? You could use a false fingering type of thing to create some separation if possible.

[empressdiver]

A good exercise for light tonguing is playing Funky Town: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax68rWI4Tuk

[Bobbytra]

Does anyone have an idea what Booker is doing? It almost sounds like a flutter tongue or some sort of breath interruption.

[Billy Baggins]

I believe booker is flicking his tongue side to side, lightly touching the tip of the reed with each pass. This works well for super fast tonguing of straight notes.

[blaine hoopes]

Garzone complains about all the students who show up articulating too much and says the first thing he does with them is get them to stop articulating with the tongue entirely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMgyckoveRw

[Maddcow]

I've found with students that sometimes it's not actually the tongue that's too slow, but the fingering not keeping up with the tonguing. Are you 100% certain it's your tongue speed that's too slow? Test this by tonguing single notes at the desired tempo, not passages.

[AnderT78]

There aint many that tounge 16th at 130bpm, when your fingers hit the notes evenly and exact together with a crisp top notch toneproduction it may say as you tounge but you don't, because when you do this the start and end of each note is so perfect.

[Fader]

I don't think there's a "trick"... more practice means better execution.

[B Flat]

Here's a thought.

[SaxTon]

Here is an example of great tonging virtuosity for those who have not seen this
The master himself, Rudy Wiedoeft:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db9P-u1_2bE

[hakukani]

Does anyone have an idea what Booker is doing? It almost sounds like a flutter tongue or some sort of breath interruption.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgSETyVs5GM

Booker Ervin had a novel approach to fast tonguing. Check out @ 1:50.

Sounds like 'doodle tonguing'. Just tongue regularly, just on the top of the blade (there's really not a 'tip') then flip your tongue up and tongue just under the blade--as in doodledoodledoodle. I've used it many times for fast repeated notes, and sometimes to fake a double tongue.

There aint many that tounge 16th at 130bpm, when your fingers hit the notes evenly and exact together with a crisp top notch toneproduction it may say as you tounge but you don't, because when you do this the start and end of each note is so perfect.

Classical pieces have bpm between 132-160. I've heard many folks that can single tongue that fast, at least for four or five notes. When I was at university, I trained my tongue to single tongue starting at 108 all the way to 144 in six months of regular practice. The tongue is a muscle. It needs to be exercised.

That being said, there have been plenty of orchestral woodwind players and many saxophonists from Rudy Wiedoeft onward that are quite skilled at double tonguing. Like any technique, it must be practiced.

[MrBlueNote]

Here's a thought...

Great clip, thanks for sharing.

[Tenorlude]

Here are a couple of good videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fzD9_Krw-s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsfNHDoFTHI