Faster Articulation?

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22
  1. #1

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    14
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Faster Articulation?

    I can tongue but what are the best methods to achieving rapid tonging such as 16th notes at 120-130? Sometimes my tongue would not move as fast as I want. Mainly on lower pitched saxes.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    SaxOnTheWeb.net
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    theneighbordubh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    nj
    Posts
    402
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Air flow and maintenance. For me it's not like riding a bike. After a while of no practice my articulation rapidly declines. There's also the "ta ka ta ka" method I haven't quite mastered yet.

  4. #3
    Christian1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,047
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by theneighbordubh View Post
    Air flow and maintenance. For me it's not like riding a bike. After a while of no practice my articulation rapidly declines. There's also the "ta ka ta ka" method I haven't quite mastered yet.
    That would be double tonguing.
    Yamaha YTS-62iii tenor/Paraschos Selmer Neck/Vandoren T20/Vandoren MO/L�g�re Signature Series 3.5
    Cannonball BBSS Brute alto/Selmer Concept MOJO/Vandoren MO/L�g�re Signature Series 3.5
    Buffet Prodige clarinet/Vandoren Masters CL6/Vandoren MO/L�g�re Signature Series 3

  5. Remove Advertisements
    SaxOnTheWeb.net
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Distinguished SOTW member/
    Official SOTW Sister
    bandmommy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Lake Odessa, MI
    Posts
    18,436
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Tongues can articulate only so fast. They have a speed limit.
    Staying relaxed and articulating lightly helps, but once you reach your personal speed limit that's it.
    Learning to double tongue might help, but it's hard to do cleanly on a reed instrument.
    Old reed players are like fine wine. They only get better with age. Tom Hagen

    Play the Music, not the instrument.

  7. #5

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    306
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    As others have mentioned, tonguing lightly will help you articulate more efficiently. A lot of people are unaware that they are tonguing too hard. I had to break that habit.

  8. #6
    Forum Contributor 2016 MrBlueNote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Portland
    Posts
    904
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by forreals View Post
    A lot of people are unaware that they are tonguing too hard. I had to break that habit.
    Any tips or exercises that helped you overcome this?
    "Jazz is people playing weird s#*t on the V and then resolving to the I."

    -My teacher

  9. #7

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    180
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgSETyVs5GM

    Booker Ervin had a novel approach to fast tonguing. Check out @ 1:50.

  10. #8

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    306
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlueNote View Post
    Any tips or exercises that helped you overcome this?
    I think it takes a long period of consciously tonguing lightly. I still sometimes forget when I'm playing loudly. To me that is the struggle: separating volume with things like tonguing too hard or grabbing the keys too hard.

    As far as the OP is concerned, tonguing sixteenth notes at 120 seems doable. Is there a passage where you have many continuous sixteenth notes that need to be tongued? You could use a false fingering type of thing to create some separation if possible.

  11. #9

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Stouffville, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    545
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    A good exercise for light tonguing is playing Funky Town: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax68rWI4Tuk

  12. #10
    Bobbytra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Jerusalem, Israel
    Posts
    136
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Does anyone have an idea what Booker is doing? It almost sounds like a flutter tongue or some sort of breath interruption.

  13. #11

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    180
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    I believe booker is flicking his tongue side to side, lightly touching the tip of the reed with each pass. This works well for super fast tonguing of straight notes.

  14. #12

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    91
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Garzone complains about all the students who show up articulating too much and says the first thing he does with them is get them to stop articulating with the tongue entirely.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMgyckoveRw

  15. #13
    Maddcow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Gold Coast, Australia
    Posts
    698
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    I've found with students that sometimes it's not actually the tongue that's too slow, but the fingering not keeping up with the tonguing. Are you 100% certain it's your tongue speed that's too slow? Test this by tonguing single notes at the desired tempo, not passages.
    SAXES: Soprano: Yanagisawa S880 with Theo Wanne HR Gaia 11 | Alto: Yamaha YAS62 "Purple Logo" with Theo Wanne HR & metal Durga 9 | Tenor: Selmer Serie III (with Warburton Modular Neck) & B&S Medusa with Theo Wanne metal Durga 9 & 10MFAN Boss 9* | WIND CONTROLLERS: Yamaha WX5 & AKAI EWI4000S

  16. #14

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    264
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    There aint many that tounge 16th at 130bpm, when your fingers hit the notes evenly and exact together with a crisp top notch toneproduction it may say as you tounge but you don't, because when you do this the start and end of each note is so perfect.

  17. #15
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2017
    Fader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    5,156
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    I don't think there's a "trick"... more practice means better execution.

  18. #16
    Distinguished SOTW Member B Flat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia.
    Posts
    5,721
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Here's a thought.
    Sent from my iPhone using poor grammar and literacy skills.
    Quality Wrought Iron & (mediocre Sax Playing)
    www.warpironworks.com.au

  19. #17
    SaxTon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    1,352
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Here is an example of great tonging virtuosity for those who have not seen this
    The master himself, Rudy Wiedoeft:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db9P-u1_2bE

  20. #18
    SOTW Administrator hakukani's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Formerly the Big Island, now on the road in an RV
    Posts
    25,606
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobbytra View Post
    Does anyone have an idea what Booker is doing? It almost sounds like a flutter tongue or some sort of breath interruption.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Baggins View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgSETyVs5GM

    Booker Ervin had a novel approach to fast tonguing. Check out @ 1:50.
    Sounds like 'doodle tonguing'. Just tongue regularly, just on the top of the blade (there's really not a 'tip') then flip your tongue up and tongue just under the blade--as in doodledoodledoodle. I've used it many times for fast repeated notes, and sometimes to fake a double tongue.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnderT78 View Post
    There aint many that tounge 16th at 130bpm, when your fingers hit the notes evenly and exact together with a crisp top notch toneproduction it may say as you tounge but you don't, because when you do this the start and end of each note is so perfect.
    Classical pieces have bpm between 132-160. I've heard many folks that can single tongue that fast, at least for four or five notes. When I was at university, I trained my tongue to single tongue starting at 108 all the way to 144 in six months of regular practice. The tongue is a muscle. It needs to be exercised.

    That being said, there have been plenty of orchestral woodwind players and many saxophonists from Rudy Wiedoeft onward that are quite skilled at double tonguing. Like any technique, it must be practiced.
    Sound guy theory of relativity: E=mc^2 (+or- 3dB)
    Sax player theory of relativity: E=mc^2 (+or- .010" at the tip)
    "Free jazz is the vegemite of the musical world. It's an acquired taste."-J. Jacques

  21. #19
    Forum Contributor 2016 MrBlueNote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Portland
    Posts
    904
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by B Flat View Post
    Here's a thought...
    Great clip, thanks for sharing.
    "Jazz is people playing weird s#*t on the V and then resolving to the I."

    -My teacher

  22. #20

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Milwaukee
    Posts
    177
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Faster Articulation?


Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •