Bari mid D - A Harmonic

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    Default Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Hey folks-
    I've been looking for a bari for some time and finally decided to buy a new Yani B902 (from Kessler). I've only had it a few days now.

    I almost always play alto and alto is really my thing, but I'd like to play all the horns. On alto I have a pretty good handle on altissimo and harmonics; when jamming I sometimes mess through playing a mid-D but popping out the A (and work on the same thing from low Bb fingerings with alt harmonics).

    In any event, on this new bari I find that its rather difficult for me to play a middle D without getting the A harmonic anyway.

    I think this just had to do with learning the right voicing for the bari.. but I'm reminded of a friend of mine (who also doesn't play much bari) having a similar issue with a different horn a few months ago.

    I was curious if any other bari players are familiar with this phenomena and can confirm this is a user error (or a horn adjustment?)

    Thanks!
    -T

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Yes.

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    A tendency.

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Long tones and interval exercises.

    It's a big jump from alto to baritone. You have to fill the thing up, take real breaths, and support from the diaphragm.

    If you want to play baritone like a bari player rather than with a pinched raspy sound like an alto player just picking up the bari, you have to put in the time.

    Look up the Joe Temperley video interview; I think it's a five part interview and he gets into sound concept and how to make a big sound in part four if I recall correctly. Words of great wisdom from Mr. Temperley (RIP)

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    I find on bari that I need to use a harder strength reed that I tend to on other horns. My other horns tend to be in the 2.5 general range but on bari I'm usually on 3-3 1/2 on a similar tip opening. Hemke reeds are what I use for comparison. In addition to that you need to really relax. Turf 3 hits it on the head. What mouthpiece are you using?

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Thanks, Turf3, I'll look up that interview.

    I have no problem putting the time in - I've been playing for about 40 years ha. Frankly I'm just trying to make sure something wonky didn't happen to the horn during shipping but, as I said, I thought it's me & replies here confirm that. So now I think it's just a matter of working with it & and developing the muscle memory for correct voicing.

    Interesting comment on "relaxing" as I was just starting to notice today that changing things to a more relaxed control seemed to help. Also moving arch of the tongue further back to prevent jumping into the harmonic seemed to help. Quite a bit further back than with alto. At least, these have been my amateur observations thus far.

    I was playing on a Meyer 6 and experimented with Legere & Rico, in range of 2.5-3 soft. Today I tried the stock Yani 5 with 3S & I think it was better (at least for now).

    Thanks for your input thus far everyone
    -T

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    Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Forum Contributor 2010-2017 maddenma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Quote Originally Posted by tcm101 View Post
    In any event, on this new bari I find that its rather difficult for me to play a middle D without getting the A harmonic anyway.

    I think this just had to do with learning the right voicing for the bari.. but I'm reminded of a friend of mine (who also doesn't play much bari) having a similar issue with a different horn a few months ago.

    I was curious if any other bari players are familiar with this phenomena and can confirm this is a user error (or a horn adjustment?)
    Welcome to the bari's 4-octave range. Now you know why.

    That said, make sure there isn't something going on with the instrument. My aging YBS-61 started opening both octave pips from G down in the 2nd register, really aggravating the issue to much more than just a minor distraction.

    Otherwise, relax the jaw, take in some more mouthpiece, role your lip under a bit more, and failing everything else, slap-tongue that baby if you have to in order to get the note started on the right harmonic.
    1926 Buescher Model 122 True Tone Series III Gold Plated Soprano
    1926 Buescher Model 120 True Tone Series III Silver Plated Straight Alto

    1936 Buescher Model 139 Custom Built Bare Brass Baritone
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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    If your bari is in good shape, then start to think bari! Playing tha alto, you have to be on your toes the whole time, the bari wants you to relax! If you play the bari like an alto, you will get the unwanted overtones you describe. So - when playing the middle C on a bari, imagine that you are playing the bottom C on the alto (which is what you are doing). Now relax until that note comes totally without effort. Then continue down - you should be able to go down to bottom D in the same manner. The bottom notes require more concentration, so leave them until you can play the rest of the range totally relaxed.

    I have been there - going from alto to baritone takes about 6 months until you learn to relax. Going back to alto takes about the same time...
    Soprano: Yanagisawa SC9930. Alto:Yamaha YAS-875EX, YAS-62. Tenor: Yamaha YTS-82z. Baritone: Yamaha YBS-62.
    Mouthpieces: Vandoren(SAT), Phil-Tone(A), JodyJazz(AB), SopranoPlanet(S).

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Congratulations on the Yani B902! I have one, from Kessler as well. You will grow to really love that horn. It's perfect!

    I've noticed no tendency to pop the harmonic A on mine, but I've been a bari player for a long time. Just to be sure, I would eliminate problems first. Take it to a tech, and then concentrate on adjusting your voicing for baritone. That mouthpiece is very nice too, but as was mentioned, it's pretty closed and probably needs a harder reed.

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Pay attention to the ring finger on your left hand as well. If this finger gets a little "lazy" and comes down later than the others as you go to play a middle D the A above will often sound instead. Yani key work on bari is the best in the world IMO and the instrument feels almost like a big tenor but the travel to shut the keys is still probably nearly twice what you are used to on alto. Not saying this is happening for sure but it's just another possibility. Doing tremolos between B3 and D2 and/or trills from C#2 to D2 (long fingering) will give you a quick check.

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Pay attention to the ring finger on your left hand as well. If this finger gets a little "lazy" and comes down later than the others as you go to play a middle D the A above will often sound instead. Yani key work on bari is the best in the world IMO and the instrument feels almost like a big tenor but the travel to shut the keys is still probably nearly twice what you are used to on alto. Not saying this is happening for sure but it's just another possibility. Doing tremolos between B3 and D2 and/or trills from C#2 to D2 (long fingering) will give you a quick check.
    I was about to suggest this - this was what solved my issue when I had this when switching from modern to vintage horns. There may also be a pad seal issue where your G key pad is not sealing with a light touch, enough to cause a leak and the subsequent overblown A.
    Buescher New Aristocrat altos - 1933 265xxx & 1934 267xxx, True Tone alto 1922 99xxx, Aristocrat tenor 1946 308xxx & Aristocrat baritone 1952 346xxx. Wooden planks for reeds and cavernous chambers

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    Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Forum Contributor 2010-2017 maddenma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Quote Originally Posted by SveinJo View Post
    I have been there - going from alto to baritone takes about 6 months until you learn to relax. Going back to alto takes about the same time...
    Well, if that were really the case, then I couldn't double between the two every week with the 10-30 seconds I have between tunes.
    1926 Buescher Model 122 True Tone Series III Gold Plated Soprano
    1926 Buescher Model 120 True Tone Series III Silver Plated Straight Alto

    1936 Buescher Model 139 Custom Built Bare Brass Baritone
    1938 Buescher Model 127 Aristocrat (Art Deco) Tenor

    1938 Buescher Model 139 Aristocrat Gold Plated Baritone (some day)
    1947 Buescher Model B-11 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Bare Brass Tenor
    1949 Buescher Model B-7 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Silver Plated Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 140 Aristocrat (Big B) Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 156 Aristocrat (Big B) Gold Plated Tenor
    1970-something Yamaha Model YBS-61 Baritone
    2015 Vibrato A1S III Plastic Alto

    Morgan, Ishimori, Strathon, and Theo Wanna Mouthpieces.





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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Quote Originally Posted by maddenma View Post
    Well, if that were really the case, then I couldn't double between the two every week with the 10-30 seconds I have between tunes.
    Yes - for a doubler that is so. For one that goes from concentrating solely on one of the instruments and then concentrating solely on the other, the journey is somewhat longer.
    Soprano: Yanagisawa SC9930. Alto:Yamaha YAS-875EX, YAS-62. Tenor: Yamaha YTS-82z. Baritone: Yamaha YBS-62.
    Mouthpieces: Vandoren(SAT), Phil-Tone(A), JodyJazz(AB), SopranoPlanet(S).

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Pulled out my Weltklang bari last night, have only been playing alto (and flutes).
    Going to bring to the jam tonight with the alto.
    Takes more air and a cushioned embouchure.
    Mid D is funky, so is the A above that.
    Both take attention: D wants to break and A is stuffy and flat. Long tones, harmonics and arpeggios are helping.
    The octave key is different than my alto so I sometimes touch it by mistake which messes things up.
    It's fun!

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Played the jam. Had to push the mpc within 1/4 in. of the cork end to be in tune, glad i had cork grease.
    Intonation wasn't too bad for not playing it for a year.
    The alto felt like a toy.
    I'm going to include it in my doubling practice routine.

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Health problems have kept me from playing the baritone for several months.

    The biggest adjustment back to the big horn from tenor was the air support --- I could feel it low in the gut right away.

    Now that my back can take it, I am going to include the big horn daily to keep up my air.

    Filling the horn at ppp and adjusting the mpc feel to let the horn work -- never completely automatic, but I already forgot a lot about how much focus it takes.

    The big girls just won't work right for me unless they are filled up with air, and it takes a lot of air. My problems with the sound are less from the mpc and more from lack of practice in getting all of the air involved all of the time. It just shows up the worst down low on the horn. Up top lack of air support - it sounds thin, but down low lack of air support all kinds of crazy things can happen. Those babies got a lot of volume for maintaining a standing wave steady and strong. That reminds me ...

    Breakfast time over. Off to the shed to wrestle. Best of luck to everyone carrying all that brass.

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    When I was off from playing regularly I ended up switching from my metal link to a metal Berg. A huge help in the air support department with the smaller chamber and turned out to be a great sound too. I still love my link but need to be in top shape to get the most out of it.

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    SR Tech Pro / Rico Royal 2 1/2 / Rovner.
    The neck has a smaller opening than my Buescher 140 alto but doesn't feel back pressured.

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    Quote Originally Posted by tcm101 View Post
    Hey folks-
    I've been looking for a bari for some time and finally decided to buy a new Yani B902 (from Kessler). I've only had it a few days now.

    I almost always play alto and alto is really my thing, but I'd like to play all the horns. On alto I have a pretty good handle on altissimo and harmonics; when jamming I sometimes mess through playing a mid-D but popping out the A (and work on the same thing from low Bb fingerings with alt harmonics).

    In any event, on this new bari I find that its rather difficult for me to play a middle D without getting the A harmonic anyway.

    I think this just had to do with learning the right voicing for the bari.. but I'm reminded of a friend of mine (who also doesn't play much bari) having a similar issue with a different horn a few months ago.

    I was curious if any other bari players are familiar with this phenomena and can confirm this is a user error (or a horn adjustment?)

    Thanks!
    -T
    I just noticed this thread. As to the D jumping to A, I suspect an imbalance of the octave keys. A normal leak would make D1 bad. You can check it out by (not playing) look at the two octave keys, the neck or near it, and the one on the body.

    No lever pressed = both closed
    Lever pressed and fingering D2 up through G#2 = only the body key open and the neck one closed
    Lever pressed and fingering A2 and up = neck key only open

    I think your neck pad is opening on D2 overventing OR only the neck pad is opening OR neither pad is opening which would cause too much player working to get into the second octave.

    If D1 seems a bit stuffy, check the low C key on the bow. If it is too closed, it will also cause issues with D2.


    HIGH A - For A3, I too use the D2 fingering but I lift the first finger of both hands 0XX OXX

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    Default Re: Bari mid D - A Harmonic

    I had this problem on my 12m when I initially got it; just took some adjustment time in my experience. However I always make sure my octave pip shuts all the way after dropping lower than an A above the staff. Might not be the problem on a newer horn though.

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