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Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

6K views 34 replies 6 participants last post by  jhammons01 
#1 ·
I just grabbed this C Melody this afternoon from a guy who had had it stashed away in his basement for 30+ years now after it was given to him by some old timer back in the day... (or at least that's how the story was told to me)

Being that I'm new to this whole world of sax's, I couldn't pass it up, despite knowing absolutely nothing about it.

Anyway, now I've tasked myself with trying to figure out just what I've got here. Aside from a badly dented/bent guard, needing a repad and some minor straightening, it's in pretty respectable condition overall. This was not purchased to resell, but rather try my hand at restoring an old sax.

After studying endless pictures of the Buescher True Tone, and numerous stencils, I'm kind of lost here. I also found an ebay auction for a Harwood, which also appears to be a Buescher Stencil, and it too has the cool gussetted neck and bow guard.

The real head-scratcher here is that the bell has absolutely no engraving on it at all. The serial number and patent stampings are fully intact and pictured below.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?











 
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#2 ·
No doubt about it. Buescher's the thing, sweet or swing.

An oldie -- maybe 1920. Drawn, rather than soldered tone holes, no Snap-On pads. Engraving would have been done by the reselling company. No way to know who that was if there's no engraving, but its origin is pretty clear.

Nice pads! ;) How's it play? Might just need a little adjustment and you're in business! :bluewink:
 
#3 ·
that was fast! ...so seeing as you're a Buescher guy, maybe you can help me understand this better. I assumed stencil to mean it was made by another company who would have tried to duplicate the real deal. ...but after studying numerous Buescher's I can't seem to find even the slightest difference right down to the shape of the keys, location, shape and style of the guards, key layout, posts, gussetts, etc. I'm just lost. Care to shed some light on this and educate the eager-to-learn (me)?

maddenma, you mentioned that the reselling company would have done the engraving. Is it fairly common to find a sax of this vintage without any of that engraving? ...just a lazy reseller? ...or a "fell off the back of the truck" special?

Yeah the pads are destroyed. 6-7 are missing and the rest of just about dust. It came with a Holton mp, which my son threw on his Conn alto and refused to give it back (for now).

So, the next question is: Do I try to shine this nearly olive drab sax up and bring back its original luster, or leave it as is? I'm not looking to resell it, but I don't want to take any of its value away (if it even has any) by doing something I shouldn't to it.
 
#5 ·
Assuming the serial number is the same as the Buescher labeled horns, it would be 1920. A stencil would be made by a company such as Buescher and labeled with a name of the dealer selling it or a name they made up. Not a copy of a Buescher, the other way around. The downside is that this horn will need at least $500 of work and then be worth about $500 or less. Too many C melodies for sale.
 
#7 ·
Buescher-produced horns from this time frame are pretty distinctive in appearance. Not hard at all to spot. Outside of the instrument world we tend to call products made by one manufacturer but labeled by another as "white label". The OEM's name isn't on it. Another term is "badge engineered". The term stencil refers to another company stenciling (engraving) it's name of a product of another company -- essentially the same thing.

I'd call that a reasonable horn to practice repair work on. Nothing really fiddly or hard to get regarding the pads or springs. You could also make a lamp or frame it and hang it on the wall. It will be worth about the same when you're done. If you paid more than $25 for it I'd take it back and demand a discount. :)
 
#8 ·
So I did pay more than $25 for it (paid $50), but if I can get it into decent playable condition for my son to make some noise with it, and be all-in under $200 or so, I'll call it a win.

Thank you for the further clarification on the stencil = white-label; Now it all makes sense. ...just don't understand why a stencil, which now seems like it's the same horn as the branded one, goes for so much less than the branded. I guess people are paying a huge premium for the name rather than the quality of the horn dictating the price?
 
#9 ·
A Buescher C-Mel was my first horn and my first rebuild. Mine still had the original white pads, but looked about the same overall shape. Don't inhale.

Look carefully at the silver finish to see if it is worn through in places. Sometimes it looks worn out, but a little Tarnex will take off the crud and, at least on mine, it revealed a perfect silver-plate finish. Stunning to look at. Not quite so stunning to play, but still a lot of fun.

Mark
 
#10 ·
A Buescher C-Mel was my first horn and my first rebuild. Mine still had the original white pads, but looked about the same overall shape. Don't inhale.

Look carefully at the silver finish to see if it is worn through in places. Sometimes it looks worn out, but a little Tarnex will take off the crud and, at least on mine, it revealed a perfect silver-plate finish. Stunning to look at. Not quite so stunning to play, but still a lot of fun.

Mark
Thanks Mark. (Good name, btw) Anyway, with the advice of using Tarn-x, I armed myself with a new cotton cloth and a bottle of Tarn-x. Hopefully I didn't ruin some sought-after army drab finish on a horn made for WWII or something, as the color had aged itself a a spot-on finish for something that you'd find buried in the corner at an army-navy store.

...a Tarn-x saturated cloth touched it and immediately dissolved away the crud to show a reddish copper-reddish hue. One more swipe and I got a glittery looking brass. So who really knows what the ultimate finish was (or was supposed to be), I have no idea, but now I'm on my way to a bare brass finish.

For fear of ruining some rare finish, I at least took comfort in knowing I saved [sort of] this horn from another 30 years of basement dwelling and have taken the first few steps to getting it back to looking nice and shiny and at least playing somewhat decent.

About 3 hours into it so far tonight, here's what I've got. What I can't show in the picture is the headache I got from the Tarn-x, followed by some I-really-have-to-try-this Eagle One NEVR DULL to see if I can bring out some luster in the brass (which did work surprisingly well).

To all the pro's out there, please bear with me, as this is quite clearly my first time ever doing anything more than make noise out of a saxophone, let alone an attempt at a novice restoration. I greatly appreciate and welcome any and all advice, don't-do-that's, etc from anyone with any knowledge on doing such a dumb thing (considering my lack of experience).

Without further delay, let's get started with the progress pics:

Some shine showing through with minimal effort with the Tarn-x.


I couldn't help myself. I had to try to polish up the newly exposed brass on the bell with some NEVR DULL. A section of the body is down to the bare brass but without the polishing.


First couple passes of Tarn-x on the bell.


Note the very visible seam. Something tells me that Tarn-x took off more than just tarnish.


10 minute Tarn-x wipe-down of the neck.


A previous "repair" of what I assume was a pretty bad dent in the bow at one point. Just a little lumpy...


A pretty badly bent guard took the tone hole with it a little. This should be fun.


Pile-O-Parts. I sure hope I can figure out how to put humpty back together again.


As I left it tonight.


I am eternally grateful to my wife for putting up with my ever-changing hobbies and for letting me use the dining room table for my workbench for the next week or so.
 
#18 ·
I didn't have quite as much time to dedicate to it tonight, but made some progress.

Most of the pads, although they were in deplorable condition, are white leather with some sort of hair backing.


my mess tonight.


notice some of the arms cleaned up very nicely with little effort when bathed in a salt+vinegar+flour mixture, yet some of the cups yielded that rosey copper color. A little more elbow grease on them got me to the brass.


after a quick first pass with NEVR DULL


 
#19 ·
Make sure to get some pipe cleaners and scrub out the inside of all the hinge rod tubes.

BTW, I didn't see the damage to the neck before. You're going to want to get that taken care of too. Pretty significant dent in a particularly bad spot.
 
#20 ·
Isn't it great how shiny stuff tends to highlight dents and other imperfections? ...yeah the neck looks like someone may have tried to use it to fend off the neighbors dog on their walk home from a gig back when our grandparents were kids. Add the neck dents to the list of things to do to this one. Oh well, I'll chalk it up to a great learning experience to arm myself with more know-how when the Cavalier tenor goes under the knife after this little project. I will not be refinishing the Cavalier however.
 
#21 ·
well, the progress has been slow the past few days, but I managed to get a few more things done.

I have to order the needle springs, pads, and figure out where to get a few of the correct screws for the rods.

I also have to figure out how to get a few of the rod screws out which are seized up. Any suggestions here?

I spent about an hour trying to work the dent out of the bow using stuff I had around the house/garage. This has been a very tedious task, especially considering I've never done this before, but I'm happy with the progress. I'm working it very slowly so as not to damage the tone hole(s) or overstretch anything. Surprisingly, the tone hole that was pulled out of round by that dent has come back into round(er) just by working that dent. With any luck, it'll be damn near round by the time I finish the dent.

Here's some before and after of the dent progress thus far. There's still lots of work to do, but I'm getting somewhere. I started to address the cottage cheese dents and the other bow dent while I was there just to divert my attention from the main dent when I got frustrated and needed to refocus.

BEFORE:






AFTER:






 
#29 ·
Surprisingly, the tone hole that was pulled out of round by that dent has come back into round(er) just by working that dent. With any luck, it'll be damn near round by the time I finish the dent.
Out of round isn't too much of a problem. Out of level is. If you have the guard completely removed and the dents out as best you can, check the hole for level. No time like fixing that when the guard is off.

A tool that I've used successfully for tone hole issues is a socket wrench. Sounds weird, but sockets have a nice polished surface for working brass and the wrench handle gives the needed leverage and control.

Check for your remaining tone hole low spot(s) after the dent work. It will likely be next to your punched in guard posts. Use the largest socket that you can get on the wrench and insert through the tone hole and into the tube. By basically sitting on the sax with the tone hole between your legs, you can pull up slowly and carefully on the low spots, constantly checking your work. You can also use the socket wrench and the biggest socket that will fit facing down the tone hole to get the hole round. Get as close as possible and then use a file to dress the tone chimney to perfection. You should be able to "wrench" within 1/32 of an inch, so you won't need to remove much material with the file.

Mark
 
#22 ·
Next up was to figure out how to get the stuck needle springs out. In my attempt to grab and push them laterally with a pair of needle-nose pliers, I accidentally broke one spring flush in the post, which I still have to get out. A few more tries, with no progress, on some of the other springs left me looking for better options. MusicMedic and another site I found had spring pliers for sale, but I can't justify spending $30-$50 on a pair of pliers. That would officially be the most expensive pair of pliers I've ever bought. ...so I relegated myself to the basement to find a solution. An old crappy set of channel lock pliers, an angle grinder, some jewlers files, a buffing wheel with white rouge chucked up in my drill press and about 30 minutes later, I came up with this: ...and they work like a charm. I just snipped the spring about 1/4" proud of the post to give the pliers something to push. Have I mentioned how well these worked worked? I think I was more excited that they pliers worked, than I was about getting the springs out of the sax.







 
#23 ·
$30-$50 is actually quite cheap for specialist pliers. You've done a good job though. They look great, if a little on the hefty side.

Music Medic do a pair of pliers for removing broken springs. You might be able to make a pair though. Similar to this pair with a slot on one side, but the other has a threaded point screwed in with a locking nut to keep it in place. (If the point gets mashed you can fit a new one.)

Failing that it's a 3/0 spring with the point ground down a bit. Support the post on a block of lead, so you don't dislodge it and tap the spring out. You may need a second person to hold the sax steady. This is harder than it sounds.

You'll find if you snip the springs with wire cutters close to the post, but leaving a bit sticking out, that it'll give you enough to push with your new pliers. But several will come out on their own with the force of the spring being cut.

Have you noticed the neck brace is the man in the moon? It tends to be a bit better defined on Buescher branded horns than stencils. Not sure where it comes from (?)
 
#24 ·
$30-$50 is actually quite cheap for specialist pliers. You've done a good job though. They look great, if a little on the hefty side.

Music Medic do a pair of pliers for removing broken springs. You might be able to make a pair though. Similar to this pair with a slot on one side, but the other has a threaded point screwed in with a locking nut to keep it in place. (If the point gets mashed you can fit a new one.)

Failing that it's a 3/0 spring with the point ground down a bit. Support the post on a block of lead, so you don't dislodge it and tap the spring out. You may need a second person to hold the sax steady. This is harder than it sounds.

You'll find if you snip the springs with wire cutters close to the post, but leaving a bit sticking out, that it'll give you enough to push with your new pliers. But several will come out on their own with the force of the spring being cut.

Have you noticed the neck brace is the man in the moon? It tends to be a bit better defined on Buescher branded horns than stencils. Not sure where it comes from (?)
Thank you for all the advice. Yes, I saw the set on the MM site, which is what inspired this pair. I agree they are a bit on the large side, but I decided on them instead of a smaller pair I had because I figured I'd rather have the leverage and choose not to use it, than have less leverage and really have to try to muscle it out. I got the subborn springs out exactly as you described and it worked very well.

I will use my smaller pair to make the broken spring drivers. Those ones will be a much more difficult pair to make, and so far I'll only need them for one spring, so there was less of a push for me to make those first.

Yep, the neck on mine is the "man in the moon" style. I wondered why it was called that until I looked at it just right and saw the face. Very cool little detail.
 
#25 ·
Does anyone know where I can get two replacement rods for this?

There are two keys in which the rods absolutely refused to loosen and I ended up stripping the slot on one. I fear the only way I can get this out is to pop the solder on the posts and unthread the post (so-to-speak) from the rod. Unfortunately, regardless of how I get it out, I'll need to replace it. I'll make them if needed, but I'd rather now, as I highly doubt I have the correct die to cut the threads.

On that note, should I actually buy the tap and die and chase the threads on the posts and rods before re-assembling everything?
 
#26 ·
Best to get another Buescher rod or something with the same thread. If it is too long, cut it shorter and use a Jeweler's saw to cut a new slot. Have you tried P B Blaster from Home Depot. Best thing I have found the unstick. Usually the problem is inside the hinge rods and not the threaded end.
 
#27 ·
Thank you Bruce. You hit the nail on the head here. The rod is stuck inside the key hinge. Unfortunately, although I did use PB Blaster (I love the stuff), I didn't let it soak in long enough, nor use heat to draw it into the hinge, so in my haste I boogered up the slot bad enough that it cannot be saved. (I know, I know. Rush now, waste WAY more time in the future. Patience is a virtue. I usually have it, but the desire to complete the disassembly got the best of me. Shame on me, but now I need to work with what I have and move forward.)

As you suggested, I do prefer to use a Buescher rod and cut it down if necessary, but I'm not sure where to locate one. Any suggestions?

In light of the truly boogered slot, I fear the only way to go without risking damaging the posts would be to pop the solder and disassemble it off the sax then resolder, but I'd really prefer not to do that if I can avoid it.
 
#28 ·
Another possibility is if the slotted end is easy to get to, drill out the end of the rod where the slot is IF there are not posts upstream from that place. If the slot end of the rod is drilled out, the entire rod can be flexed enough to work (rotate) the hinged key(s) off of the rod. Once this is done, the open rod can be worked enough with a vise grip to remove it. All of this may not work depending on which section is involved.
Which keys are we talking about?
 
#31 ·
...and another minor update... I did take to the torch and popped the solders on the 4 posts holding the two keys in place and was able to remove the rods without a ton of trouble. ...getting everything back together will be the challenge, but I'm planning to get two longer replacement rods, threading each rod into the threaded posts, making a spacer the exact length of the key hinge and putting it on the rod, then slide the stabilizing post onto the rod. This makes kind of a post / key-hinge / post kabob which ensures each post is perfectly aligned to its mate and properly spaced for the key. Couple that with the obvious solder remains from where I removed the posts, and I expect to get a damn near undetectable resolder of the posts.

...but while they're off, I'll tape off the solder (so as not to disturb it any further) and use the opportunity of less crap in the way, to further polish up the whole body.
 
#32 ·
In addition to box wrenches for the body tube, here's a purpose made tool for removing that little dent in the neck. Because of your dent's location by the pip, I think you will only be able to reach in from the cork end and "wipe out" the dent. DIY dent balls (sockets) won't work. Make sure that you have a long enough straight section so that you don't distort the other side of the neck. To maximize that, put as little of bend as necessary in the working end. The 90 degree bend on the outside is important to get control.

http://stuffsax.blogspot.com/2014/11/removing-saxophone-neck-dent.html

You may also be starting to see the benefits of a non-traditional non-shiny finish on a saxophone. An acid wash finish camouflages the little wrinkles from dent work.

http://stuffsax.blogspot.com/2017/01/1939-martin-handcraft-tenor-rebuild.html

Mark
 
#34 ·
I just lied to you in my other thread.....you "do" have a "man on the moon" gusset on your neck. That and the bend guard gusset on the bottom means that you have a Buescher without a doubt.

When/if you go to sell this one, you'll fetch just as much as a Buescher as the Buescher TT C-Mel 'hunters' on Ebay know what they are looking for. The only C-Mel that fetches more is the Conn New Wonder II.

What confuses me is the finish or the lighting used for your pictures, in most of the pics it does look like brass, but your disassembled pics from the repair table show what could only be Silver. Is the body Silver?? It looks brass in your pics.

The Broken/stripped rods....You'll need to take a micrometer to the O.D and get the exact size and a tap and die set might be the right thread pitch but there are as many rod sizes and thread pitches as there are horns out there. It's tough to find the right rod size when you don't know the O.D. of the rod you have. But once you find a rod, The Die that cuts the threads.....it'll squeeze the metal and you'll have to grind the outer part of those newly cut threads or else it'll be too tight and never go all the way into the post. You can take a jewelers saw and cut the screwdriver slot yourself, it need not be precision.

Do not try to drill the rods out as.....the rods are a stronger metal than the post, your tiny drill bit WILL flex and either break or go off course and you'll drill out the threads of the post which creates more troubles for you down the road.....a replacement rod is easy compared to finding a post for an 80 year old horn. No one stocks those......no one.
 
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