Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please? - Page 2

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  1. #21

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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    well, the progress has been slow the past few days, but I managed to get a few more things done.

    I have to order the needle springs, pads, and figure out where to get a few of the correct screws for the rods.

    I also have to figure out how to get a few of the rod screws out which are seized up. Any suggestions here?

    I spent about an hour trying to work the dent out of the bow using stuff I had around the house/garage. This has been a very tedious task, especially considering I've never done this before, but I'm happy with the progress. I'm working it very slowly so as not to damage the tone hole(s) or overstretch anything. Surprisingly, the tone hole that was pulled out of round by that dent has come back into round(er) just by working that dent. With any luck, it'll be damn near round by the time I finish the dent.

    Here's some before and after of the dent progress thus far. There's still lots of work to do, but I'm getting somewhere. I started to address the cottage cheese dents and the other bow dent while I was there just to divert my attention from the main dent when I got frustrated and needed to refocus.

    BEFORE:







    AFTER:







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  3. #22

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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    Next up was to figure out how to get the stuck needle springs out. In my attempt to grab and push them laterally with a pair of needle-nose pliers, I accidentally broke one spring flush in the post, which I still have to get out. A few more tries, with no progress, on some of the other springs left me looking for better options. MusicMedic and another site I found had spring pliers for sale, but I can't justify spending $30-$50 on a pair of pliers. That would officially be the most expensive pair of pliers I've ever bought. ...so I relegated myself to the basement to find a solution. An old crappy set of channel lock pliers, an angle grinder, some jewlers files, a buffing wheel with white rouge chucked up in my drill press and about 30 minutes later, I came up with this: ...and they work like a charm. I just snipped the spring about 1/4" proud of the post to give the pliers something to push. Have I mentioned how well these worked worked? I think I was more excited that they pliers worked, than I was about getting the springs out of the sax.








  4. #23
    Distinguished SOTW Technician. Oric Muso's Avatar
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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    $30-$50 is actually quite cheap for specialist pliers. You've done a good job though. They look great, if a little on the hefty side.

    Music Medic do a pair of pliers for removing broken springs. You might be able to make a pair though. Similar to this pair with a slot on one side, but the other has a threaded point screwed in with a locking nut to keep it in place. (If the point gets mashed you can fit a new one.)

    Failing that it's a 3/0 spring with the point ground down a bit. Support the post on a block of lead, so you don't dislodge it and tap the spring out. You may need a second person to hold the sax steady. This is harder than it sounds.

    You'll find if you snip the springs with wire cutters close to the post, but leaving a bit sticking out, that it'll give you enough to push with your new pliers. But several will come out on their own with the force of the spring being cut.

    Have you noticed the neck brace is the man in the moon? It tends to be a bit better defined on Buescher branded horns than stencils. Not sure where it comes from (?)

  5. #24

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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oric Muso View Post
    $30-$50 is actually quite cheap for specialist pliers. You've done a good job though. They look great, if a little on the hefty side.

    Music Medic do a pair of pliers for removing broken springs. You might be able to make a pair though. Similar to this pair with a slot on one side, but the other has a threaded point screwed in with a locking nut to keep it in place. (If the point gets mashed you can fit a new one.)

    Failing that it's a 3/0 spring with the point ground down a bit. Support the post on a block of lead, so you don't dislodge it and tap the spring out. You may need a second person to hold the sax steady. This is harder than it sounds.

    You'll find if you snip the springs with wire cutters close to the post, but leaving a bit sticking out, that it'll give you enough to push with your new pliers. But several will come out on their own with the force of the spring being cut.

    Have you noticed the neck brace is the man in the moon? It tends to be a bit better defined on Buescher branded horns than stencils. Not sure where it comes from (?)
    Thank you for all the advice. Yes, I saw the set on the MM site, which is what inspired this pair. I agree they are a bit on the large side, but I decided on them instead of a smaller pair I had because I figured I'd rather have the leverage and choose not to use it, than have less leverage and really have to try to muscle it out. I got the subborn springs out exactly as you described and it worked very well.

    I will use my smaller pair to make the broken spring drivers. Those ones will be a much more difficult pair to make, and so far I'll only need them for one spring, so there was less of a push for me to make those first.

    Yep, the neck on mine is the "man in the moon" style. I wondered why it was called that until I looked at it just right and saw the face. Very cool little detail.

  6. #25

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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    Does anyone know where I can get two replacement rods for this?

    There are two keys in which the rods absolutely refused to loosen and I ended up stripping the slot on one. I fear the only way I can get this out is to pop the solder on the posts and unthread the post (so-to-speak) from the rod. Unfortunately, regardless of how I get it out, I'll need to replace it. I'll make them if needed, but I'd rather now, as I highly doubt I have the correct die to cut the threads.

    On that note, should I actually buy the tap and die and chase the threads on the posts and rods before re-assembling everything?

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    Best to get another Buescher rod or something with the same thread. If it is too long, cut it shorter and use a Jeweler's saw to cut a new slot. Have you tried P B Blaster from Home Depot. Best thing I have found the unstick. Usually the problem is inside the hinge rods and not the threaded end.

  8. #27

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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce bailey View Post
    Best to get another Buescher rod or something with the same thread. If it is too long, cut it shorter and use a Jeweler's saw to cut a new slot. Have you tried P B Blaster from Home Depot. Best thing I have found the unstick. Usually the problem is inside the hinge rods and not the threaded end.
    Thank you Bruce. You hit the nail on the head here. The rod is stuck inside the key hinge. Unfortunately, although I did use PB Blaster (I love the stuff), I didn't let it soak in long enough, nor use heat to draw it into the hinge, so in my haste I boogered up the slot bad enough that it cannot be saved. (I know, I know. Rush now, waste WAY more time in the future. Patience is a virtue. I usually have it, but the desire to complete the disassembly got the best of me. Shame on me, but now I need to work with what I have and move forward.)

    As you suggested, I do prefer to use a Buescher rod and cut it down if necessary, but I'm not sure where to locate one. Any suggestions?

    In light of the truly boogered slot, I fear the only way to go without risking damaging the posts would be to pop the solder and disassemble it off the sax then resolder, but I'd really prefer not to do that if I can avoid it.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    Another possibility is if the slotted end is easy to get to, drill out the end of the rod where the slot is IF there are not posts upstream from that place. If the slot end of the rod is drilled out, the entire rod can be flexed enough to work (rotate) the hinged key(s) off of the rod. Once this is done, the open rod can be worked enough with a vise grip to remove it. All of this may not work depending on which section is involved.
    Which keys are we talking about?

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    Quote Originally Posted by markmdz View Post
    Surprisingly, the tone hole that was pulled out of round by that dent has come back into round(er) just by working that dent. With any luck, it'll be damn near round by the time I finish the dent.
    Out of round isn't too much of a problem. Out of level is. If you have the guard completely removed and the dents out as best you can, check the hole for level. No time like fixing that when the guard is off.

    A tool that I've used successfully for tone hole issues is a socket wrench. Sounds weird, but sockets have a nice polished surface for working brass and the wrench handle gives the needed leverage and control.

    Check for your remaining tone hole low spot(s) after the dent work. It will likely be next to your punched in guard posts. Use the largest socket that you can get on the wrench and insert through the tone hole and into the tube. By basically sitting on the sax with the tone hole between your legs, you can pull up slowly and carefully on the low spots, constantly checking your work. You can also use the socket wrench and the biggest socket that will fit facing down the tone hole to get the hole round. Get as close as possible and then use a file to dress the tone chimney to perfection. You should be able to "wrench" within 1/32 of an inch, so you won't need to remove much material with the file.

    Mark

  11. #30

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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Fleming View Post
    Out of round isn't too much of a problem. Out of level is. If you have the guard completely removed and the dents out as best you can, check the hole for level. No time like fixing that when the guard is off.

    A tool that I've used successfully for tone hole issues is a socket wrench. Sounds weird, but sockets have a nice polished surface for working brass and the wrench handle gives the needed leverage and control.

    Check for your remaining tone hole low spot(s) after the dent work. It will likely be next to your punched in guard posts. Use the largest socket that you can get on the wrench and insert through the tone hole and into the tube. By basically sitting on the sax with the tone hole between your legs, you can pull up slowly and carefully on the low spots, constantly checking your work. You can also use the socket wrench and the biggest socket that will fit facing down the tone hole to get the hole round. Get as close as possible and then use a file to dress the tone chimney to perfection. You should be able to "wrench" within 1/32 of an inch, so you won't need to remove much material with the file.

    Mark
    ...it must be a Mark thing...

    I was racking my brain trying to figure out what I could find around the house to work the dent out carefully. After getting frustrated with numerous objects, and a lack of a huge ball bearing to go with the neodynium magnet I would borrow from my son, I took to the garage and started going through the toolbox. What I found to work exceptionally well a few different offset box wrenches through the adjacent tone hole. I'm have put in about 30 minutes working the dent and it's slowly working its way out. I polished up the head of the wrench(es) before using them to work the dent, as I did not want to mar the inside of the bow while working the dent.

    ...we shall see....

  12. #31

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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    ...and another minor update... I did take to the torch and popped the solders on the 4 posts holding the two keys in place and was able to remove the rods without a ton of trouble. ...getting everything back together will be the challenge, but I'm planning to get two longer replacement rods, threading each rod into the threaded posts, making a spacer the exact length of the key hinge and putting it on the rod, then slide the stabilizing post onto the rod. This makes kind of a post / key-hinge / post kabob which ensures each post is perfectly aligned to its mate and properly spaced for the key. Couple that with the obvious solder remains from where I removed the posts, and I expect to get a damn near undetectable resolder of the posts.

    ...but while they're off, I'll tape off the solder (so as not to disturb it any further) and use the opportunity of less crap in the way, to further polish up the whole body.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    In addition to box wrenches for the body tube, here's a purpose made tool for removing that little dent in the neck. Because of your dent's location by the pip, I think you will only be able to reach in from the cork end and "wipe out" the dent. DIY dent balls (sockets) won't work. Make sure that you have a long enough straight section so that you don't distort the other side of the neck. To maximize that, put as little of bend as necessary in the working end. The 90 degree bend on the outside is important to get control.

    http://stuffsax.blogspot.com/2014/11...neck-dent.html

    You may also be starting to see the benefits of a non-traditional non-shiny finish on a saxophone. An acid wash finish camouflages the little wrinkles from dent work.

    http://stuffsax.blogspot.com/2017/01...r-rebuild.html

    Mark

  14. #33

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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    Any idea where I can get replacement rods for this? ...or am I better off making them? Does anyone have any idea what material they are? Any issues with me replacing the destroyed rods with stainless steel?

  15. #34

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    Default Re: Possible Buescher Stencil? No engraving at all on the bell... Help ID Please?

    I just lied to you in my other thread.....you "do" have a "man on the moon" gusset on your neck. That and the bend guard gusset on the bottom means that you have a Buescher without a doubt.

    When/if you go to sell this one, you'll fetch just as much as a Buescher as the Buescher TT C-Mel 'hunters' on Ebay know what they are looking for. The only C-Mel that fetches more is the Conn New Wonder II.

    What confuses me is the finish or the lighting used for your pictures, in most of the pics it does look like brass, but your disassembled pics from the repair table show what could only be Silver. Is the body Silver?? It looks brass in your pics.

    The Broken/stripped rods....You'll need to take a micrometer to the O.D and get the exact size and a tap and die set might be the right thread pitch but there are as many rod sizes and thread pitches as there are horns out there. It's tough to find the right rod size when you don't know the O.D. of the rod you have. But once you find a rod, The Die that cuts the threads.....it'll squeeze the metal and you'll have to grind the outer part of those newly cut threads or else it'll be too tight and never go all the way into the post. You can take a jewelers saw and cut the screwdriver slot yourself, it need not be precision.

    Do not try to drill the rods out as.....the rods are a stronger metal than the post, your tiny drill bit WILL flex and either break or go off course and you'll drill out the threads of the post which creates more troubles for you down the road.....a replacement rod is easy compared to finding a post for an 80 year old horn. No one stocks those......no one.

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