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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    despite the fact that trumpets are not saxophones, the study would be relevant if it had reached unequivocal results (It didn’t, read the premise and the conclusions).
    It most certainly did reach an unequivocal conclusion: there was no change attributable to the cryo treatment.
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  3. #22
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    actually, although I am most firmly in the camp of the non vibrationalist the conclusions of this study were most definitely NOT so clear cut.

    In many cases, the cryogenically treated trumpets display elevated upper har- monics when compared to their untreated counterparts. This deviation can be seen in both the steady-state and transient regions of the notes played. This could be correlated with the claims that the treatment results in a trumpet with a brighter tone. However, in the case of Player#3, the opposite is seen, with the untreated trumpets displaying stronger upper harmonics (and, presumably, a “darker” tone). In addition to this contradiction found in the data, virtually none of the data is conclusively statically independent. The scatter of data (i.e. variation from trumpet-to-trumpet) overshadows any difference seen between the treated and un- treated trumpets. Further, variations seen between players and between sessions for the same player are also much greater than the variations found between the treated and untreated trumpets. Although it is possible that the cryogenic treat- ment does have an effect on the timbre of an instrument, the effect is subtle at best when compared to other determining factors."

    so, no conclusive data has been reached, in any case variation was observed but it didn’t exceed the normal stochastic variation

    ( It doesn’t mean that there was nothing to observe! It only means that sings one way or other were too small)

    It might also mean that a study on 6 trumpets cannot show variation because the sample is simply to small and positive or negative variations are still within the normal plus or minus variation observed and considered the normal oscillation in this things.

    Also I wonder if they considered permutations of different players on different trumpets, this would have given also dato whether some form of subjective operator bias could be associated to a player. This could account, for example the player number 3 discrepancy.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by brasscane View Post
    Note that I didn't say they couldn't. I said should't, which of course is hay, as a simple observation demonstrates that bumblebees do fly. Assumptions gave rise to the myth.
    The snopes article cited is about a myth that scientists have "proved" that bumblebees should not be able to fly.

    This is often stated in shorthand that bumblebees cannot fly according to science.

    According to the article, scientists long ago attempted to create mathematical models to account for insect flight and failed.


    The scientific story is one about the remarkable success in developing a mathematical model that works: "[B]rilliant work by Torkel Weis-Fogh, professor of zoology at Cambridge University in the 1970s, showed us how small insects fly."

    The myth involved here is the one that asserts that science says bumblebees should not fly. Science never said that. Science said, for a long time "our mathematical models are inadequate."

    "Insect flight and wing movements can be quite complicated. Wings aren’t rigid. They bend and twist. Stroke angles change. New, improved models take that into account."

    Mistaken assumptions about science gave rise to the myth that science asserted that bumblebees should not be able to fly. Those same mistaken assumptions allow for such inaccurate statements to be repeated, even now, after sufficient mathematical models have been around for going on 50 years.

    In direct application to the question here, science has developed a good understanding of the factors that lead to sound in sonorous tubes and cones. The materials forming the tubes and cones do not matter in any significant way, so long as the material used is sufficient. Brass and steel and gold and silver and iron and copper are all fine for supporting the waves. Nevertheless, people continue to go so far as to assert, without evidence, that even the type of paint on the tube alters the sound, when it is the size and shape that is responsible, as far as we can tell.

    But people will hear things according to belief ---- a person who believes that a bright chrome horn should sound brighter will hear a difference where no machine can measure one.

    A wise person will proportion belief to the evidence. A prudent person can safely conclude that freezing metals will not alter the sound generated by a sonorous tube. Whether the standing wave being generated is initiated by lips spluttering together, or from a machine, from wind over a hole, or from one or two reeds connected to the end of the tube is a distinction without a difference.

    According to science, bumblebees do fly (asserting observation) and should be able to fly also (asserting current mathematical models).

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    well, the assumption here is even worse.

    The cryogenic variety of vibrationalists postulate that the brass metal crystals ( even if and when they do they often speak of " brass molecules"when none such things exist) in the metals re-arrange their structure permanently.

    Anyway walls vibration might play a role in brass instruments because of coupling which is of no importance in woodwinds but it has a bearing on the brass instruments sound production.

    http://la.trompette.free.fr/Smith/IOA/material.htmj

    http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/?page_id=105&sprache=2


    http://www.sea-acustica.es/WEB_ICA_0...mus-07-006.pdf
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    I don't just talk and theorize about cryogenically treated gear, I own it. All I can definitively say about the effects (of my Cryo lig) is that I'm glad they brought the temperature back up before selling it to me. Can you imagine the effect on fingers if they didn't???


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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Thomas View Post
    Yes, quite a valid argument. But I could simply counter that the sound production is the same: the splitting or dividing of the air column. This is the common denominator in a woodwinds, as opposed to an actual reed per se.

    Over to you...
    Sure, they are both woodwinds. I just would not disregard the significance of the reed, or the difference between cylindrical versus conical bore, or a number of other things before I made statements about one from studying the other. That is just good scientific practice. Small changes can make a huge difference. You and I are genetically >99.9% identical and by now you will probably be really attached the minuscule differences if you weren't already.

    BTW, I didn't say anything about cryogenic treatment, which I don't believe in, but that is belief. I also never put science and bumblebees in the same sentence. The bumblebee myth likely arose from someone looking at one flying creature and feeling competent to make statement about another. My point was simply that one should exert caution with drawing conclusions about saxophones from studies on trumpets. If only science were that simple.

    I will bow out here. I do wish I had a video of the young woman taking a sip of liquid nitrogen in front a bunch guys who were too chicken to try. That was truly a cryogenic treat.
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    This article (in the original post) is years old isn't it? It's not anything new.

    EDIT: Just checked it's from 2003.

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    .... variation was observed but it didn’t exceed the normal stochastic variation
    Which by definition means that there was no change attributable to the treatment.
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    no, it could mean that the sample used was too smal to se if there was any variation
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    no, it could mean that the sample used was too smal to se if there was any variation
    Five samples of each flavor, played by six different people, is most certainly a large enough sample.
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by chilehed View Post
    Five samples of each flavor, played by six different people, is most certainly a large enough sample.
    It doesn't seem so large to me when I consider the dependence between player and mouthpiece. If you force each person to use the same mouthpiece, it is not optimized to each player's preferences, air stream, embouchure, etc. If each person uses their own mouthpiece, that, in turn, will influence the harmonic content.

    No, it is too small a sample to be statistically relevant.
    Go for The Tone,

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    exactly, the data variation might be hiding any result... if there is any to be observed ( i doubt it but again my stance here is that the experiment is flawed), in the fold of the variations.

    I find interesting that player number 3 actually played with an unexpected difference which might even have been seen a a pejorative effect.

    This is one of the things which interest me the most.

    Any proposed gizmo or technique always seems (in the mind of those who postulate such thing) causing a positive effect and never ever anyone comes up with something you add or modify to the DETRIMENT of the sound.

    This seems to be impossible.

    If people postulate that sound CAN be improved by adding things or modifying things they should also expect that things can be actually working agains a “ better sound”.

    It’s a bit like the video in which Claudio Zolla by Cazzani shows, with the intent to say that different metal cause different sound, several pieces of metal and hits them with a mallet (using the metal itself as the source of the sound which is NOT what happens in a wind instrument ) at some point he hits several metals.

    He hits ( around 15’) brass, bronze, and then he hits copper which is not resonating at all. He says that he was disappointed and in fact disproves, by doing that, exactly what he is trying to prove!

    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some don’t. Those who have the cherries aren’t likely to share them though.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    Any proposed gizmo or technique always seems (in the mind of those who postulate such thing) causing a positive effect and never ever anyone comes up with something you add or modify to the DETRIMENT of the sound.

    This seems to be impossible.

    If people postulate that sound CAN be improved by adding things or modifying things they should also expect that things can be actually working against a “ better sound”.
    milandro, you make an excellent point here. One that seems to pass entirely under the radar when discussing these techniques or gizmos designed to supposedly do something to affect the sound of a musical instrument.

    Let's for just a moment assume that cryogenic treatment, or adding a 'buzz screw' to the lyre holder, or some sort of metal plate to the outside of the horn, etc, can actually have an effect on the sound. Aside from being a very questionable assumption with no real evidence, how likely is it that such an effect will always, in every case, show a vast improvement (or even a subtle improvement) to the sound, no matter who is playing or how they are playing the instrument. I submit anything that might truly have an effect could just as likely be creating an undesirable effect as a desirable one.

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    I recently invented a new saxophone product, the Sax Hammer, where you rest a nice heavy hammer on the body to bell brace, and it makes absolutely no difference. We're going worldwide soon!

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    you can hang it to the lyre screw too...the klangbogen does that ( as wel or as badly) , but costs a lot of money.

    H hammer has a lot of mass and some parts vibrates like hell ( the wood) and the metal transmits vibrations very well.
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Good for freezing skin abnormalities.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by click View Post
    The snopes article cited is about a myth that scientists have "proved" that bumblebees should not be able to fly.
    That may be a myth, but it is a fact that scientists cause cancer in lab animals.

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr G View Post
    It doesn't seem so large to me when I consider the dependence between player and mouthpiece. If you force each person to use the same mouthpiece, it is not optimized to each player's preferences, air stream, embouchure, etc. If each person uses their own mouthpiece, that, in turn, will influence the harmonic content.

    No, it is too small a sample to be statistically relevant.
    Six players, three of them very proficient, playing six notes on ten horns in as many as three different player/microphone orientations for a total of 66 comparative power spectra. The only significant deviation between the two flavors is seen in a single note by a single player on a single horn at a single player/microphone orientation, and then only in the 11-13th and 18-21st harmonics, and it wasn’t even repeatable! This is a classic null result, and only wishful thinking can hold otherwise. In my industry, with this kind of data not only would we refuse to bother with the process even if it were free, we’d laugh anyone who proposed it out of the room.
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by chilehed View Post
    Six players, three of them very proficient...
    Yeah, you can stop right there. You just neutered the data set by half.

    Sad, very sad.
    Go for The Tone,

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr G View Post
    Yeah, you can stop right there. You just neutered the data set by half.

    Sad, very sad.
    Nonsense, you can't have it both ways. On one hand you complain that forcing people to use a non-optimal mpc (and you don't know that that happened) skews the results, which means that you think there's a problem with using players who aren't very proficient. And then you claim that using only players who are very proficient skews the results as well.

    Study the paper carefully. It's a valid test with a null result.
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