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  1. #1
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    Default Cryo study...have at it guys

    http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/musicengi..._paper_asa.pdf



    Abstract. The acoustic effect of cryogenically treating trumpets is inves-tigated. Ten Vincent Bach Stradivarious B? trumpets are studied, half ofwhich have been cryogenically treated. The trumpets were played by 6 play-ers of varying proficiency, with sound samples being recorded direct to discat a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. Both the steady-state and initial transientportions of the audio samples are analyzed. In some cases, a slight shift ofpower in the harmonic spectrum toward the higher frequencies is observed inthe treated trumpets. However, no statistically independent results are seen,and the most pronounced results were not repeatable. Differences observedin player-to-player and trumpet-to-trumpet comparisons overshadow any dif-ferences that may have been brought on due to the cryogenic treatment. Alldata was collected in a double blind fashion. The treatment itself is a threestep process, involving an 8 hour linear cool down period, a 10 hour period ofsustained exposure to -195 ?C (-300 ?F), and a 20-25 hour period of warmingback to room temperature.
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Shouldn't be long now before someone says that everyone knows that trumpets aren't as ........... as saxophones! Fill in the blank with any random saxophone related term.

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    If cryogenic treatment has no consistently discernible effect on trumpets, it certainly will have no effect on saxophones. (Unless someone freezes the pads! Maybe we should try that.)

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Good science with well designed experimental protocol. Unfortunately when science goes up against people's feelings and beliefs, science often loses!

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by mijderf View Post
    Shouldn't be long now before someone says that everyone knows that trumpets aren't as ........... as saxophones! Fill in the blank with any random saxophone related term.
    Also that 44k sampling rate isn't high enough. You need at least 66K to capture those 33KHz overtones that give the trumpet it's brilliant sound and they should have tested with 6 Maynard Ferguson clones, but since Maynard isn't with us anymore, the test must be invalid.

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by mijderf View Post
    Shouldn't be long now before someone says that everyone knows that trumpets aren't as ........... as saxophones! Fill in the blank with any random saxophone related term.
    Indeed, trumpets are not saxophones and saxophones are not concrete flutes. Scientific results are highly dependent on study design, so the prudent thing is not make any inferences from one instrument/study to another.

    BTW, I regularly dip my fingers in liquid nitrogen for unrelated reasons, but it doesn't seem to help.

    Also, I knew a girl once who drank liquid nitrogen at a - scientific - course. She played the trombone really well, but did not tell me of an impact on her playing. It did, however, result in a very large and predictable burp afterward.
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    "saxophones are not concrete flutes"

    According to The Encyclopaedia Britannica, Sax "discovered a new principle in the manufacture of wind instruments, viz., that it is the proportions given to a column of air vibrating in a sonorous tube, and these alone, that determine the character of the timbre produced: the material of the walls of the tube is not of the slightest importance so long as it offers enough resistance." (emphasis added)

    That cryogenic stuff is all the same as node stones, P-ligs, and swing chips.

    I am, however, a firm believer in belief and superstition. If wearing 2 different colors of socks makes you play better, then it is "go, baby, go!" as far as I am concerned. No doubt. When a company comes out with a professor (?) claiming that their socks with cryogenic threads and Nepalese point crystals woven in make you play better, they should be called out for it.

    As stated in the encyclopedia, the evidence is in on the question and it shows that the concrete flute results can be extrapolated to the saxophone safely. Both are the sonorous tube. Sax got that couple a centuries ago.


    [my all time favorite:
    SWING CHIP

    "Swing Chip" controls the vibration of the instrument itself be pasted into the instrument, is a revolutionary item that can remove the cause of not adversely affect the players played on the unwanted vibration to it.
    Sound variation and of by each sound, such as a good enough sound is not missing problem might be unnecessary vibration of the instrument itself is going on in the cause. "Swing Chip" is to eliminate the stress you feel often when such a player is to play, to achieve better performance than reflecting its own image to direct.
    Also improved vibration efficiency of the instrument body by suppressing unwanted vibration, clarity and direction of the sound quality will be greatly improved. Please by all means take advantage as well as a means to bring out the potential of your existing instruments without having to get a new one to the new instrument.

    Sales price: 37,00 €"

    I seem to recall a photo on a sales pitch for these showing a pair of them attached to either side of a wire plugging in an amp.
    The photos on quoted page here do not have that one, tho ...

    http://saxtienda.com/index.php/en/ac...ng-chip-detail

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by mijderf View Post
    Shouldn't be long now before someone says that everyone knows that trumpets aren't as ........... as saxophones! Fill in the blank with any random saxophone related term.
    Aren't as what as saxophones???? Why would anyone think a study on trumpets has any relevance to saxophones?

    If you cryogenically freeze a teapot and find it makes better tea, would people think that is relevant to saxophones?
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by brasscane View Post
    Indeed, trumpets are not saxophones and saxophones are not concrete flutes. Scientific results are highly dependent on study design, so the prudent thing is not make any inferences from one instrument/study to another.
    I think the inference I've stated in post #3 above is quite plausible, given what we know already about the differences between brasswinds and woodwinds.

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    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by brasscane View Post
    Indeed, trumpets are not saxophones and saxophones are not concrete flutes. Scientific results are highly dependent on study design, so the prudent thing is not make any inferences from one instrument/study to another.
    I would find a flute study more relevant to saxophones than a trumpet study, seeing as both saxophones and flutes are woodwinds, but trumpets aren't (last time I looked anyway)

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Thomas View Post
    Aren't as what as saxophones???? Why would anyone think a study on trumpets has any relevance to saxophones?
    A positive result for trumpets would not imply a positive result for saxophones. But a negative result for trumpets gives us good reason to believe that the result for saxophones also would be negative. The reason is that there is evidence that the composition of the instrument walls does affect the tone of brass instruments, whereas good evidence of that sort is lacking for woodwinds; indeed, the scientific evidence that does exist for WW is to the contrary.

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Thomas View Post
    Aren't as what as saxophones????
    If you cryogenically freeze a teapot and find it makes better tea, would people think that is relevant to saxophones?
    I don't know about a teapot, but I think I heard that cryogenics changes the pitch of a whistling tea kettle!

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Thanks, I'll file this under...Let's see....
    Nope, don't have a proper listing.
    If you can't dazzle them with brilliance...then baffle 'em with bullsh*t.

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Cryogenic treatment of the lower lip can have an significant impact.

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by LostConn View Post
    I think the inference I've stated in post #3 above is quite plausible, given what we know already about the differences between brasswinds and woodwinds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Thomas View Post
    I would find a flute study more relevant to saxophones than a trumpet study, seeing as both saxophones and flutes are woodwinds, but trumpets aren't (last time I looked anyway)
    I could simply counter that neither trumpets nor flutes use reeds, and therefore saxophones evidently are very different from both. Penguins and pelicans have a lot in common but the wings of a penguin function more like the fins of a fish. The bumblebee shouldn't fly, but it does, and airplanes that should have flown turned out not to. Generations of clever doctors came up with countless theories about gastric ulcer and performed numerous highly invasive surgeries and bothersome regiments for a disease that turned out to be caused by an infection and cured in a few days with antibiotics. Lives and fortunes are lost as result of plausible explanations and expectations. Fortunately, saxophones are fairly harmless no matter what untested predictions we make about them; tempests in teapots.
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Facts can be pretty useful.

    http://www.snopes.com/science/bumblebees.asp

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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by click View Post
    Note that I didn't say they couldn't. I said should't, which of course is hay, as a simple observation demonstrates that bumblebees do fly. Assumptions gave rise to the myth.
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Just throwing it out there i recently read about a DW drum customer who has a solid concrete shell snare drum they manufacture. i know its not cryogenic-ally frozen but this is a material no one else considered for a musical instrument.
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    despite the fact that trumpets are not saxophones, the study would be relevant if it had reached unequivocal results (It didn’t, read the premise and the conclusions)

    “...However, no statistically independent results are seen, and the most pronounced results were not repeatable. Differences observed in player-to-player and trumpet-to-trumpet comparisons overshadow any dif- ferences that may have been brought on due to the cryogenic treatment..."

    However even if the amount of work needed to put a saxophone to work after treatment is significantly more than it is in a trumpet.

    I expect that the trumpet ( this isn’t clear to me) were at least cleaned of the oil and then re-oiled after treatment? Everyone knows that oil plays an essential role in the working of a trumpet because its density determines how it adheres to the surfaces and takes the space of voids necessary in all moving parts of the instrument.

    If they left the same oil inside they then cryogenically treated it the oild would have been deeply changed in its structure and if they didn’t, there was different oil in the trumpet before and after treatment, therefor a different essential criteria.

    In both cases the methodology wasn’t clearly explained but it must be one way or the other.
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    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cryo study...have at it guys

    Quote Originally Posted by brasscane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Thomas View Post
    I would find a flute study more relevant to saxophones than a trumpet study, seeing as both saxophones and flutes are woodwinds, but trumpets aren't (last time I looked anyway)
    I could simply counter that neither trumpets nor flutes use reeds, and therefore saxophones evidently are very different from both.
    Yes, quite a valid argument. But I could simply counter that the sound production is the same: the splitting or dividing of the air column. This is the common denominator in a woodwinds, as opposed to an actual reed per se.

    Over to you...

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