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Identifying C-mel mouthpieces

6K views 25 replies 8 participants last post by  jhammons01 
#1 ·
Hi,
I've been lurking for a long time. I played clarinet all through school for 10 years, stopped for 32 years, and recently took it up again, though I've been playing Native American flutes, recorders and penny whistles for a while in between.
Anyhow, I finally admitted to myself that I like sax jazz maybe a teeny bit more that clarinet, so pulled the trigger and bought a Conn c melody after doing a ton of research. It should arrive tomorrow, with whatever mouthpiece is on it, i don't know, and the guitar player i bought it from doesn't know a thing about saxes. I am sure it's a C, as i got pictures of the C, LP and serial number, putting it at a 1922 Conn, a full nickel finish. I also had a clarinet friend who's a doubler on saxes and collects pre WWII Bueschers, including a C, look at the pics for me to verify it is a C melody. I've found threads on identifying the sax itself as a C, but not on mouthpieces. I suppose since most people do replace the original mp with a modern one, it's not a big concern.

What i'm wondering is, when i look at vintage mouthpieces at that auction site, i sometimes wonder if it could be a c melody mouthpiece, and not a alto or tenor as the seller states. Is there a measurement that is close to being standard for the C?
I notice most vintage C's have a short shank with a kind of collar at the bottom, I'm sorry, i don't know the term for that. But the vintage C mouthpieces seem to look very much the same, not like alto's and tenor's, with a dizzying variety of styles.
So is there any real dead giveaway that i'm looking at a C, mislabeled as something else? I do understand most people prefer a modern C, or alto or tenor, to the vintage C mouthpiece, which is often described as stuffy. I'd just like to know how to spot a C that isn't actually labeled a C, if there's any other signs to watch for.
Thanks, Lisa
 
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#2 ·
Lisa, not really. If it were side-by-side with alto and tenor mouthpieces of the same model/vintage, the C would be the one in the middle by size of course, but that obviously wouldn't be the case in the situation you describe. It might be marked with a "C", but that's not surefire either as that could refer to a tip opening on any mouthpiece.

The "collar" that you refer to is probably the shank (bottom-most portion of the mouthpiece, the part with the opening that goes on the neck). Are you saying it's metal? There was a Sinclair model C-melody mouthpiece with a metal shank. I've got one around here somewhere if you want a picture of one. Buescher and Conn probably made a lot of C-melody mouthpieces to go with the saxophones they made. I think I've got a couple of other oldies around here, too. But without having it in hand or in the hands of someone with a good eye or an alto, tenor, or C-melody neck to try it on, you will just be guessing.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for the reply.
No, i'm not saying it's metal. I just went and looks at a bunch of auctions, and i'm seeing mostly C melody Buescher's for sale, or already sold. The shank tapers in, then flares out at the very bottom, with the bottom having a kind of rolled edge. I did notice a few Conns with a metal ring. I have very little experience looking at mouthpieces, it's all new to me, but it seems like the style of the Buescher is very distinctive, most altos don't have that rolled, rounded lip around the bottom edge of the shank, or the taper. I did also see one with the metal shank, as you mentioned.
I understand what you're saying, there's too great a variety of styles and overall lengths to really tell without having it in hand, unless it is so obviously a Buescher, and maybe 3.75" long, whatever a C-mel Buescher comes in at. I'll get a better idea when my sax arrives tomorrow, though for all i know, it has a tenor or alto mp on it, and not the original Conn.
I probably shouldn't be so worried about mouthpieces right now, I highly doubt it's going to be playable. I'm counting on an overhaul first, though of course, I'm hoping it'll play a few notes.
Lisa
 
#8 ·
...The shank tapers in, then flares out at the very bottom, with the bottom having a kind of rolled edge. ...
Glad to hear you are happy with the new horn.

That shape applies to Buescher mouthpieces of all sizes in that (1920s-1930s roughly speaking, maybe even earlier). Sigurd Rascher based his mouthpiece on the Buescher (though the latest soprano version is supposed to be based on a Martin) and it has a similar shape. You can see photos of them on their website: http://www.raschermouthpieces.com/

C-melodies went out of production in roughly the same era that those mouthpieces did. So while many (or most) C-mel mouthpieces have the stubby shape from that era, only a small fraction of alto and tenor mouthpieces are shaped like that.

Some people play alto or tenor mouthpieces on their C-mels. You can find more discussion and recommendations if you search the forum (I find that Google is the best way to search).
 
#5 ·
Hi Lisa,
Welcome to the world of C. My C is also a Conn of nearly same vintage but in silver plate. I think they are the best of the C's made back in the day. As for the mouthpiece, Conn horns of the era usually had what was known as the Conn Eagle Mouthpiece. It was hard rubber with a very small tip opening; at the bass of the shank there is indeed a narrow metal trim ring--most of them I have seen and the one I own have the ring silverplated. It really is not a playable mouthpiece for getting any sort of modern sound from the horn. You have to put something like a 3.5-4 reed on it to keep from closing off the tip and then the sound it not good. Once you get the horn, look for a good modern piece. I have an Aquila metal piece; plays in tune and has volume but I really prefer a FAXX branded hard rubber one I picked up on ebay a few years ago for like $50. The Morgan is supposedly the best but expensive and I cannot even find one for sale anymore. Looking forward to how you like the C.
 
#6 ·
Well I got the horn today, and I'm very thrilled! It looks so nice, like it was hardly used at all! It does need a full repad, it has white leather pads with a staple in the middle, so possibly original, with some pads falling out or missing, dried up glue on the back.

The mouthpiece appears to be the original, having the narrow metal trim ring and the eagle on it. It's in good condition, not damaged, but faded. I was able to slap a bass clarinet reed on it and get one nice note out of it because of all the missing pads.
I supposed I should start a new thread, but I don't think the serial number starts with an 8, but instead a 3, putting it at a 1916 model instead. So I don't know if it's a Wonder, or New Wonder I. It seems to be between the two, according to the info I've found about the two models. And I'm not totally sure it is a 3 and not an 8, except it doesn't have rolled tone holes or a microtuner neck, putting older than the New Wonder. I know most people feel the twenties was the best era for the C melody, the New Wonder and Chu model, but I really like the one I have, whatever the heck it is.

Now have to save up for repadding and new corks. The local tech quoted me $600 for doing only that. I may have to try and repad it myself, which i know is probably too difficult for me to do, but i don't know that i want to wait another six months to play it while I save the money. I have a clarinet background, and was thinking it would be more like $300, which is my mistake.

I'm going to keep my eyes open for a decent used modern C mouthpiece and see how that works for when it's finally up and running. The eagle that came with it looks unscathed, not modified at all. I've got an alto and a tenor mouthpiece already to try on it, and looking for other mouthpiece gems for my new C-mel, though I'm afraid I have a long wait till it's playable.

Lisa
 
#7 ·
Original C-Melody mouthpieces normally play pretty dull and stuffy. If you can find anyone selling Zinner C-Melody mouthpieces, I highly recommend them.
 
#9 ·
I suspect a New Wonder series one. An advantage to having the older curved neck Conn is that you can try tenor mouthpieces as the straight neck models with the micro tuner limits how far they will go in the neck. Before I got a Morgan C mouthpiece, I used my regular Selmer mouthpiece and it sounded much better than the old one but a bit hard on the low end. Try whatever you have as something may work for you. Here is a serial number list for Conn models:

New Invention

Year Range Serial Range

1912 - 1913 22000 - 24999
1913 - 1914 25000 - 29999
1914 - 1915 30000 - 32499


New Wonder -series I

Year Range Serial Range

1915 - 1916 32500 - 34999
1916 - 1917 35000 - 39999
1917 - 1918 40000 - 44999
1918 - 1919 45000 - 49999
1919 - 1920 50000 - 57999
1920 - 1921 58000 - 63999
1921 - 1922 64000 - 82999
1922 - 1923 83000 - 101774
1923 - 1924 101775 - 124599
1924 - 1925 124600 - 145399
 
#10 ·
I dug out a Buescher C-melody mouthpiece yesterday and it is marked with a C on the body as you can see on the photo of this example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Bue...744532?hash=item282bd00394:g:rvMAAOSw4CFYpOSl . In that era Buescher did not use letters to indicate tips. Sometimes facing info was stamped on the table, sometimes on the side of the table, and sometimes nothing at all, but the weren't single letters - either a number or a more complex designation specifying the opening and facing length I think. So an old Buescher shaped like that with a C on the top of the body is a C-melody mouthpiece.
 
#11 ·
Bruce, I think it's a transitional model, between a Wonder and New Wonder. It doesn't have rolled tone holes or a micro tuner neck, which puts it at a Wonder. However, it also doesn't have a Union stamp, or soldered tone holes, which from what i read, would put it past a Wonder, and put it at being a New Wonder. So it does have drawn, not rolled tone holes, pearl keys.
It depends what chart you look at for the Conn serial numbers, the one I saw had around 41,00 as the start of the New Wonder.
it's just interesting and fun for me to look up and read all this info from that timeframe, that's part of owning a vintage instrument, doing a little reasearch and seeing what it's all about, I'm enjoying reading the threads here on the C-mel forum and looking at all the research and pictures others have collected on the Con C melodys out on the Web.

RS, great link for an example. I saved it, and will see what bidding ends up at. The Conn Eagle that came with my sax is so faded and worn, I can barely make out the Eagle and the word "Trademark", nothing else. I have a Saxscape Xtra dark tenor, and some off brand alto, a Tilco super x, to try out once it's up and running. Meanwhile, I'm going to collect a few mouthpieces that I can find for reasonable prices, so i have an assortment to try, along with keeping an eye out for a Zinner, Morgan, or some other modern C mouthpieces that have good reviews.
I have quite a few clarinet mouthpieces, it's an easy way to really change up the color of how an instrument plays, so the idea of hunting down the right mouthpiece to match the style of music appeals to me, it's going to be part of the fun of owning a C melody.
Lisa
 
#12 ·
Hey Lisa.
I am not a great horn player, but I can play some. I much prefer a C-Melody over tenor or alto. I have a 1923 Buescher that I am in love with.
So far the best mouthpiece for me is the FAXX. They are about $40 online. I use a Rovner lig and a Fibracell reed. The horn plays very well in tune and sounds quite modern with this combo. This next week I am going to order a Runyan and see how it performs.
I like very modern sounding MPs but I can't stand to stick a metal one in my mouth. I played them back in the 80s and I just hate them. On my alto I use a Aaron Drake and a Jody Jazz Jet, both HR pieces. I wish those companies made C Mel pieces.

If I were you, I would spring for a JAXX very soon. I think you will be happy you did. I actually ordered the 2nd one just to put away in case this one gets dropped and broken.
 
#16 ·
The New Wonder C melodies with the curved neck did not have the micro tuner. As to the rolled tone holes, some had straight non rolled in the NW series until the 20s. I have a soprano with drawn and rolled, drawn only and soldered all on the same horn (1919). The Conn Loyalist has NW starting around 40K so yours could be on the cusp.
 
#19 ·
I think I do have a "cusp" model, as the more I research, the more it seems to fit in both Wonder, and New Wonder models. I think it has drawn tone holes, but I'm double checking that with a magnifying glass, since I'm not a hundred percent sure, and took some close up pictures too. The nickel plating kind of hides things, to my weak eyes.
I contacted several places to restore it for me, and every tech person told me that it was not a desirable horn, not 1920's, and they wanted me to understand I'd never recoup the money I put into it, which i thought was conscientious of them to do. It doesn't matter to me, it's the horn I want. Now to either come up with the $700+, or try and do it myself, which I know is a bad idea, but getting to be a reality. It would take me a couple of years to set aside that kind of money. Youtube and some tech books might be my new best friends.
Lisa
 
#17 · (Edited)
I haven't checked this thread in a few days, I've been horribly sick. I'm a home care aide, and caught some pestilence going around. Today is the first day since Saturday morning i am out of bed and sitting upright. Anyhow, I appreciate the comments and pics posted, they're all very helpful to me.
Also, since I called in sick for work, again, and am feeling a little better, I was just taking pictures of my sax, trying to determine if it has drawn or soldered tone holes. I just can't tell. I'm basically using my cellphone as a lighted magnifying glass. Is there a part of the forum I should post to about tone holes? I don't want to mess up this thread getting off topic.
Rackety, how do you like the Najoks mouthpiece? Is it worth pursuing one? I thought it looking interesting, but I assume would be difficult to reface because of th metal lay? Can metal mouthpieces be refaced, or is it simply hardly to do than a HR or plastic? I'm not talking about me doing it, I have no idea how to reface, other than watching a few Youtube videos for my own curiousity.
Lisa
 
#18 ·
I've had a Buescher C-melody for years and have never played it. I think it has its original pads from the 1920s, so I assume it's unplayable. All of those mouthpieces (and I forgot to include one based on what appears to be a Chedeville blank) except the Morgan have the huge chamber, small tip opening, and scooped sidewalls of mouthpieces of that era. People here will tell you they are unplayable, but the fact is that this is what players of that era used, and classical saxophonists of the Rascher "school" still use today. They produce a different sort of sound to the prevailing tone, and usually require a stiffer reed than usual to make up for the small tip opening.

Yes, the pictured Naujoks has a metal facing. Metal mouthpieces in general can be refaced. Most are brass or bronze but some are stainless steel which is difficult to work with and avoided by some refacers. I would post a question about the particulars of refacing a Naujoks in the mouthpiece forum and see what the mouthpiece refacers on the forum have to say. I doubt that the metal is too hard, but if it's too thin at the tip it could cause a problem, but again, that's a question for people who actually do that sort of work.

To get an idea what the C-Mel sounds like with the traditional mouthpiece, or the comparable mouthpiece on alto (replete with a number of special techniques like belly-laughs and slap-tongue):





 
#21 ·
Thank you for posting the caravan mouthpiece link. Wow, no wimpy little picture when you click the enlarge button!
 
#25 ·
I'll try to measure mine this weekend. I have the hard rubber version; supposedly mfg by babbit but who knows. I think there is a cheaper plastic version as well.
Interestingly, I have owned my FAXX piece for a couple of years and from the looks of it, you'd think the piece was 30-40+ years old. the HR has really become a flat finish and a bit faded to brown kind of like the old mpcs you might get with an old conn, buescher or martin C but it still plays really nice.
 
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