What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I work form home. It's a small house. I often have a pile of instruments in my lounge. That makes my house unsuitable for quite a few sorts of entertaining.
    For all rooms that have any association with instrument repair, I have allocated a percentage of floor space to my work, then work it out for the whole house's floor area. 59%.
    So 59% of my house expenses are overheads. I have sacrificed 59% of my house to my work. That's a pretty big "overhead" carried by my personal life self.
    I've been audited twice by Inland Revenue, and had the situation totally accepted.
    Effectively my business is renting space in my home, and paying rather too little for its intrusion into my private life, eg no spare room for people to stay over. It's pretty difficult to put a $ value on that.
    Yes, my business would probably have to pay more for the same roof/floor space in another building.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Gordon, I enjoy your responses, but that makes no sense.

    Your equating a tax writeable expense as a comparitive.

    Your house exists already, if you have a mortgage then you are already paying that mortgage, if you own your home then you own that Space.

    Working from a commercial premises requires a person to on top of there home mortgage have additional expenses and additional rent or loan repayments.

    Example 1 operating from home

    Mortgage 1000 a month

    Example 2 operating from commercial premises

    Mortgage for home still 1000 a month, plus additional 1000 for commercial premises

    To say they are the same is incorrect, to say they are comparative becuase your personal home space is inconvenienced running your business's from you house is just silly.

    A tax writeoff is different, we are equating whether a person that operates from a commercial premises has larger overheads, the answer is a resounding yes, are those overheads far more costly than stock, example pads, another resounding yes.

    I don't get your logic on this one.


    Steve

  3. #43
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I guess it's all perspective...

    I suppose instead of my work taking over my house, detracting from its functions as a home, I could have a boarder or two. My overhead could be seen as the lost income from those boarders. And I am unable to claim that for tax rebate.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  4. #44
    Distinguished SOTW member, musician, technician & columnist clarnibass's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    In most cases having two separate places would cost more, but sometimes not and it's definitely not true that your living expenses (e.g. mortgage) would necessarily cost the same.

    Maybe you need a much larger place to be able to work there too. You might need to choose a specific area to be for living and working. Some other things might need to be more specific and possibly more expensive. A single larger space in a more industrial area might not cost more (or even less) than e.g. two extra rooms in the place where you live.

    There are so many variables, but if I was looking for a new place to be for both living and working it would definitely cost significantly more than a place just for living.

  5. #45
    Distinguished SOTW Member B Flat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Life was far less expensive when I was able to work from home.
    And how one can claim such a high percentage is beyond me.
    30% would be the norm.
    Having said that, our house isn't large enough to accommodate those boarders that you speak of.
    Yet ours is a house and thought of as that.
    The moment I could take my business from the garage to a factory was also the moment I got real about it.
    As then you have no choice.
    Sent from my iPhone using poor grammar and literacy skills.
    Quality Wrought Iron & (mediocre Sax Playing)
    www.warpironworks.com.au

  6. #46
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Wow, it feels like I'm standing in front of a brick wall, banging my head on it, clearly this is becoming a mute point, so many people surmising that maybe if this and that and the universe aligned at the right moment that maybe it may all cost the same.

    Until you do it, fact is you don't know. The mortgage example was exactly that, a simple almost non argumentable comment as it's blantantly an overhead in thousand plus dollars a month extra, for those that run there business from a seperate premises, know this is only some of the extra costs.

    This is not saying anything about quality of work, just associated costs that can be equated between business's operating from the same location

    For me, my overheads in running a business from a seperate premises from my home, far exceeds the value of some pads, which is what started this "discussion", if the greatest cost you have in running your business is stock of pads, I am envious of you as pads are such a trivial overhead in my costs.

    This is a choice thing, I'm okay with this extra cost, it allows me to work faster, be more efficient in my time handling and actually treat my business as a business. If I don't do it right, then I close my doors way faster than someone doing it from home.

    Costs to do business between different repairers in the same locality exist, they exist as we all have a base line before we make a profit, that baseline differs between people, then onto that base line we add our take home wage, some people take home way more than others.

    Steve

  7. #47
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I live in a "two bedroom" house. I sleep in neither of those bedrooms; (I sleep in a tiny appendage room, too small and low to be a legal bedroom, I think).
    My work occupies most of the main bedroom - certainly no bed in there! - and all of the other bedroom. (Also a machine-shop outside)

    So I think Nitai has explained well.... If I reclaimed my house for personal use, including kicking customers out of my bathroom and porch, and kicking Inland Revenue auditors from my office (= dining table), and getting rid of instruments awaiting repair in my lounge, and wanted to carry on working at home, I would have to significantly extend my house, and the overheads associated with that enlarged house would be much the same as a small premise in an industrial area.

    In effect, I barely have a home. I camp in my workplace. Think of it as a workplace that has a boarder. This situation would be less obvious if I had a house with a couple of hundred square metres.

    Whenever overheads are considered, sacrifices of assets have to be considered too. They are hidden overheads.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I give up on you Gordon, just bouncing my head on a brick wall.

    Steve

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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    The thing I wonder, is what is the point of lowering your overhead, if you intend to just give the money you save away, buy lowering your prices? If that's the way people think, then why not just go get a nice place to work from and charge more? To me a job is worth, what a job is worth. If you can offer the same product as another person, and figure out a way to do so while increasing your profit margin,then congrats. I think it's the product you offer that should determine the price of that product, not the cost of providing that product. Should someone that does garbage work be able to charge more than someone who does top quality work, because they have higher business expenses?
    Mike Reed

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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Mike, people can charge what they want to charge.

    Customers feet do the talking.

    However a persons real world expenses have to be accounted for as well, you cannot operate a business with overheads of example 60 dollars an hr and sell your services for 50 dollars an hr.

    As far as the person with little to no overheads charging more than a person with higher overheads, that's just smart business, to a point, then it's price gouging.

    Steve

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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I think customers only care about the end product not at all about how it came about.
    When I try to involve my customers in their instruments ( in this case pianos) most don't really want to know what's going on.
    I still do it so that misunderstanding are less likely to arise.
    I only can claim a minimum of space in my home as a workshop/office since I mainly go to tune pianos in client's homes.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Steve I suspect you charge nowhere near enough to begin to cover the overheads associated with a vast array of expensive (in cost and time) equipment, most of which is idle for most of the time.

    I see you as a guy excited and passionate about clever equipment, who makes a little money from it on the side. Haha!
    (It takes one to know one, but I am limited by space)
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  13. #53
    Distinguished SOTW member, musician, technician & columnist clarnibass's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Quote Originally Posted by simso View Post
    Until you do it, fact is you don't know. The mortgage example was exactly that, a simple almost non argumentable comment as it's blantantly an overhead in thousand plus dollars a month extra, for those that run there business from a seperate premises, know this is only some of the extra costs.
    Only if (e.g.) the mortgage is the same for your house/apartment whether you have another space or not. It might not be. I know a real example of someone who actually has higher expenses because his shop is at his house. Do the details matter? I can explain why but the point is that it can depend on the situation. In most cases having a separate place probably costs more, but it's not definite.

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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    The entire purpose of running a business from home is to cut your overall costs of home and business. You can then offer your services at lower rates than your competitor's business operating in a high-cost commercial premises, attract the customers and still make good profit.

    If you are sufficiently well established that you can attract enough customers with high rates, then the commercial premises could be a marketing benefit.

    If you can run your business from home and charge the high rates, then you are in nirvana. The Aga Khan comes to mind - one of the richest men in the world, and he works from home!

  15. #55
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    it might be true in some place and it isnít in others.

    There is no way that in the Netherlands, even if you live in the most remote of the locations (and some repairers do, for example I know some in Friesland, a relatively sparsely inhabited region of the Netherlands, who have their shop in a converted farm), that a shop location would cost less than devoting one or more rooms of your own house to running a commercial activity.

    Not only we have provisions in the law especially concerning those whom have a shop in a building where they also have their living quarters. Yesterday I was talking to a friend who has such a (Antique) shop.

    He cannot listen to the radio (without paying a special fee for the authorís rights) in the area of his house where customers are allowed for example.

    Anyway, a full repad meas different things to different people and has a different build up of costs to different people.

    Some charge little and work a lot, some prefer to charge a lot more and work a little less. To each his own.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some donít. Those who have the cherries arenít likely to share them though.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I think the overhead of running a location outside of the home will almost always be substantially more than working from home. When it comes to per item sold, maybe not so much. Not to many people working from home have 10+ other techs producing income for them. So when you look at the overall picture, there may be a bit more to it. That person with the higher costs, may be able to still compete at with lower prices, if they have a lot of other people adding to their bottom line. One person can only do so much in the day. Every situation is unique.

    I look at repair services as products. I don't care what it costs to make a product when I go to pay for it, to me this has no bearing on how much I want to pay for the product. I make purchases with value in mind, what am I getting, for what I'm paying, and what is that worth to me. If I go to buy a screwdriver, I don't care if it was made by one person working in their garage or in a factory somewhere, I care about how well will this tool perform and how long it will last. I might consider what it looks like and how does it feel in my hand. If I'm choosing between two different screwdrivers, how much it cost to make then is something I could really care less about. It is all about the product. The disclaimer to that would be, if I found out that a product was being made in some sweatshop, by mistreated children or something like that.
    Mike Reed

  17. #57
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    was it Walworth that said he would sooner sell 1000 items at 1% profit than 1 at 100% profit?

    This is an interesting thread for a non sax technician and I have enjoyed reading it.

    I can see both sides of the arguments if you rent a premises then you immediately have expenses ascociated to that so before you as an individual earn any money you have to earn the rent rates and bills money first. If you work from home then your effectively earning straight away as and everything you earn is for your pocket no other expenses.

    Some of the other comments have suggested different prices for pro and student sax's which to me is odd as the same effort and work is required on both so the only real question is the particular sax worth spending X on, owners choice then and who can put a price on sentimental value?

    The Tech / repairer I use has a simple system get it playing quick fix cheap, service not so cheap but everything stripped except bell from body, all mechanical parts cleaned oiled and all faults fixed pads replaced when where necessary, and an overhaul which is total strip including bell from body which are both sonic cleaned and all pads felts corks teflon strips whatever replaced, tone holes checked and levelled as required, costs a lot but you always have a better than new sax at the end of it. Also he wont do a service if he thinks there is too much work he will ask you to have it overhauled, and I have known him do an overhaul and then tell the customer that he is only going to charge them for a service as there was significantly less repair work to do than first thought, this includes dents etc.

    At the end of the day I think we all find repairers we trust with our friends and trust them to say what is wrong and how much it will be, we in the end decide if it is worth it or not. There are many more expensive and cheaper repairers than the guy I use and I would not recommend them to anyone other than avoid at all cost as they do more damage than good. It really does not take long to get a good report going with a repairer who gets to know you, how you play and like things set up and in return you get to know someone that will always tell you the way it is gives great advice on potential purchases and overtime a trusted friend.
    I am having a curry with mine next Tuesday, I trust his ability and trust his pricing, he values my custom and more than that he values the personal referals that all his customers give to other people thus growing his business and reputation.
    never a dull moment when playing your horn

  18. #58
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    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Being a straight shooter and doing consistently good work is what its all about. As far as pro and student work, no it really isn't the same. For me the difference can be several days worth of work. You can't make a Hyundai Sonata a Ferrari, but either one can have a engine rebuilt, and even be tuned up beyond factory specs a bit, but they aren't the same, nor do their owners expect the same out of them. With instruments you can always go just a bit further, how far you take that, is the difference. The instrument and the customer both play a role here. In the end, its all about making sure the customer is well informed and gets what they want, and what they pay for.
    Mike Reed

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