What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?
Viking Instruments
Hyson Music
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 58
  1. #1
    Homely Saxman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    547
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I'm picking up my tenor from the shop on Tuesday. The horn's been fully repadded, since it was still on original pads when I bought it. My alto was new when I bought it, so I've never had to pay for a full repad before, so I had no idea how much is included in one: at least at the place I took my horn to, a full repad includes replacing all pads, felts, and corks, as well as adjusting key heights and tensions if requested. All that seems pretty complete to me; apart from straightening out the body or removing dents if needed, chemical baths, or maybe delaquering if someone wants it, I can't think of too much more that can be done to a horn. This got me thinking: what else is included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad? I recognize that different techs do things a little differently, but I'm curious as to everything else that an overhaul generally consists of.
    Alto: Yamaha Custom 875-EX; Vandoren Al3, Vandoren Blue Box 3.5; Lebayle AT 7, Rigotti Gold 3M
    Tenor: Selmer Mark VII; Rousseau Classic 4R, Vandoren Blue Box 4; 10mfan Robusto 7**, Vandoren Green Java 3
    I write music sometimes

  2. #2
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2016
    JayePDX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    13,102
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Lots of threads on the subject, primarily because there is no 'industry standard' as to the definition of "Repad" vs. "Overhaul".

    But to keep it short, to your list I would add:

    1) Key Swedging.

    A Repad should include Key Swedging ...because what's the point of installing spanking new pads if there's play in some keys ?

    (NOW....DO most Techs include Swedging as part of their Repad Scope of Work ?...I actually don't think so. )

    2) Tonehole leveling.

    Same issue as above - what's the point of new pads if.....?

    (DO most Techs include leveling in Repad Scope ?.....I dunno).
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

    (AdBlock Plus is your Friend https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/fir.../adblock-plus/)

  3. #3
    Homely Saxman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    547
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I can't remember the full scope of everything that the repair person did because I brought it in over two weeks ago; I probably won't really know how much was done until I get the horn back, or perhaps more accurately, the receipt for it.
    Alto: Yamaha Custom 875-EX; Vandoren Al3, Vandoren Blue Box 3.5; Lebayle AT 7, Rigotti Gold 3M
    Tenor: Selmer Mark VII; Rousseau Classic 4R, Vandoren Blue Box 4; 10mfan Robusto 7**, Vandoren Green Java 3
    I write music sometimes

  4. #4
    Distinguished Technician & SOTW Columnist
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    15,449
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    +1 to Jaypdx.

    When I do a repad I attend to all issues that might affect the performance and reliability well into the future. (Otherwise, as Jay says, what's the point!)
    That will often include tone hole leveling and some swedging. It may also include attending to a plethora of other design and manufacturing issues, and abuse by both player and previous "technicians".
    For example in many locations, friction in linkages is a pretty significant issue
    So I guess my repad is an overhaul. The only thing I don't do is major attention to cosmetics.
    Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.

  5. #5
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Down Under
    Posts
    4,369
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    A repad - I replace all the pads, recut all tone holes, minimal swedging, minimal dent work, limited amount of springs replaced (extra charge if more), new felts and regulation corks as required

    A Overhaul, I strip the instrument of lacquer, re-laquer, new springs, new corks, new pads, new felts, complete dent work, tone holes all recut, key extensions, swedging, my goal is better than it was when it was purchased new.

    A repad costs 400-500, an overhaul starts around 1500 upwards

    I average 30-60 repads on saxophones a year and 1-2 overhauls

    Steve

  6. #6
    Homely Saxman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    547
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon (NZ) View Post
    +1 to Jaypdx.

    When I do a repad I attend to all issues that might affect the performance and reliability well into the future. (Otherwise, as Jay says, what's the point!)
    That will often include tone hole leveling and some swedging. It may also include attending to a plethora of other design and manufacturing issues, and abuse by both player and previous "technicians".
    For example in many locations, friction in linkages is a pretty significant issue
    So I guess my repad is an overhaul. The only thing I don't do is major attention to cosmetics.
    That's sort of the impression I got from my tech. It's a good thing, though; for $875, a full repad better be pretty extensive.
    Alto: Yamaha Custom 875-EX; Vandoren Al3, Vandoren Blue Box 3.5; Lebayle AT 7, Rigotti Gold 3M
    Tenor: Selmer Mark VII; Rousseau Classic 4R, Vandoren Blue Box 4; 10mfan Robusto 7**, Vandoren Green Java 3
    I write music sometimes

  7. #7
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2016
    JayePDX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    13,102
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I would say we all agree. The "Overhaul" goes into dent/finish/cosmetic issues. That should be the main difference.

    Some techs' Repads may NOT include a chem bath. Some may NOT include hole leveling. Some may NOT include swedging.

    But for $875...you should have gotten at least the last 2 of those in your Repad, IMHO. If you pay that much for a Repad and don't...that's kinda crappy, methinks.
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

    (AdBlock Plus is your Friend https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/fir.../adblock-plus/)

  8. #8
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2014
    Mark Fleming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,053
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    In addition to the above, what I always do on my own horns is run a pipe cleaner through all the rod tubes, first with a very thin oil to clean them out and then with a heavier key oil. I also twist an oiled pipe cleaner into all of the pivot sockets. If there is any indication of corrosion on the rods or pivot points, they are cleaned and polished with bronze wool. It takes about 6 pipe cleaners and two drops of oil for a horn, but makes a big difference. I also roll the rods on the glass bench top to see if they have acquired any bend. That can lead to finding little things that might otherwise not be attended.

    Most players don't/can't fully assess their horns before taking it in for a complete rebuild. They know that something is needed, but not exactly what or how extensive. They are at the mercy of the tech. They could limit their "exposure" by 10 minutes of talking with the tech, after the tech has a chance to give the horn an inspection. Knowing what to ask about is basically what has been discussed above. You might also get the feeling that getting a second opinion, or getting a different tech, would be worthwhile.

    Mark

  9. #9
    Distinguished SOTW Member artstove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    2,297
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    The 2 techs I work with are always pretty clear about what they will do, and how much it will cost. They will look at the horn, describe what they see it as needing, and let me know how much it will be. So I don't have to figure out what is in a "repad" or an "overhaul," as it is just itemized.

  10. #10
    Distinguished SOTW Member artstove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    2,297
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    And both of them are honest, and will work to a budget - if I say I have $200 to spend, they will figure out the most important stuff to do that will fit in that budget.

  11. #11
    Homely Saxman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    547
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Thanks for all the replies; this has all been very informative! To be clear, I'm not concerned about whether or not I'm getting my money's worth- I trust my tech and he was very upfront about what was going into the work, how long it would take, and what it would cost- I was just curious as to what else was included in an overhaul, because the repad was more extensive than I'd anticipated. I've never had to get a full repad for my alto, so I'd never really thought about it.
    Alto: Yamaha Custom 875-EX; Vandoren Al3, Vandoren Blue Box 3.5; Lebayle AT 7, Rigotti Gold 3M
    Tenor: Selmer Mark VII; Rousseau Classic 4R, Vandoren Blue Box 4; 10mfan Robusto 7**, Vandoren Green Java 3
    I write music sometimes

  12. #12
    Distinguished SOTW member, musician, technician & columnist clarnibass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Jerusalem, Israel.
    Posts
    4,616
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I wouldn't worry about whether it's called a repad or overhaul, only what's actually done. I've actually never seen an instrument that was in excellent condition except all ruined pads, so I've never only replaced the pads on any instrument. It is much more common to have an instrument needing a very extensive repair without replacing all pads since some are good. It is reasonable to call it a "repad" even if most of the work wasn't even replacing the pads themselves.

  13. #13
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    29,913
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    For $875 I would expect to bring back the horn is ď as newĒ a state as possible ( with the exception of removing scratches or any cosmetic blemish) , that would certainly include total disassembling, flattening of keys and toneholes with rotary files, removal of any play, adjusting key height and making it as even as possible the action throughout the horn, silencing and removing friction with the use of special materials ( thus not only cork and felt). Of course all dings and dents being removed

    The $1,500 (and above) MusicMedic Łberhaul is, to my knowledge, the most expensive overhaul in the business and Iíve been critical of its cost, but when it was described in detail and assuming that all of itís carried out as described is great value compared to a $875 that doesnít bring the horn ( a relatively new one) to ď as newĒ conditions. The ‹berhaul contains also tuning the saxophone with crescents which personally I donít think it is necessary and very time consuming, but aside from that anything else seems to me desirable and indeed I would expect everything else other than the fine tuning of notes and neck to be a part of a $875 overhaul.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some donít. Those who have the cherries arenít likely to share them though.

  14. #14
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2016
    JayePDX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    13,102
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    There are some techs (as in many more than two) in the Bay Area (SF) will charge $1500 for an Overhaul at the blink of an eye...

    Quote Originally Posted by Homely Saxman View Post
    .... because the repad was more extensive than I'd anticipated. I've never had to get a full repad for my alto, so I'd never really thought about it.
    Well, congrats, then. This should be exciting, because it'll probably be the most worked-up horn you have ever played, yes ? If your tech is good, it should be a great experience. Enjoy.
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

    (AdBlock Plus is your Friend https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/fir.../adblock-plus/)

  15. #15
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    29,913
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    they might charge that kind of money but I wonder if most of their potential clients take this as an acceptable behavior and vote by driving somewhere else to pay half of that!

    In the whole of the Netherlands nobody asks that kind of money $1500, which taking into amount the fact that we enjoy some of the highest salaries in Europe and have way higher taxation than any in the US means that it is not impossible to make a more than decent living charging half of that money even if you pay more for anything else.

    Sweden has among the most expensive prices in Europe but it is not unheard of people taking a ferry and bringing their horns to NL o B for an overhaul. Indeed I have recommended once a German SOTW member to have his horn overhauled here.

    He took a bus came to bring the horn to one of the best technicians in the NL , one week after he came again and picked up his Super 20, even after this expenses, he paid less than he would have paid in Berlin.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some donít. Those who have the cherries arenít likely to share them though.

  16. #16
    Distinguished SOTW Member
    Forum Contributor 2016
    JayePDX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    13,102
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    they might charge that kind of money but I wonder if most of their potential clients take this as an acceptable behavior and vote by driving somewhere else to pay half of that!
    Some do, some don't. These guys had worked up their rep as the 'local gurus', although IMHO the servicings they actually provided, while solid and complete, were not exactly 'far and above'.

    Thus there began to develop another avenue of younger techs who did just as good a job, & were also more polite and accessible, for around 60-70%% the cost.

    Now, not to seem curmudgeonly...the current 'gurus' for the most part payed their dues - I remember one starting out in his garage out in Fog Land in the 90's. So they worked up to establish themselves, and back then there were only a limited # of 'em in town to begin with.

    This changed in the past 10-12 years , and nowadays - I hear things have changed some more, there are more guys now establishing themselves down there than there were 6 years ago. So it's a better balance of availability (albeit still I believe a $900 overhaul in the area is considered quite the deal).

    But from even recent threads I still read here, the 'gurus' still fetch their prices and customers still rationalize paying such an exhorbiant amount by feeling they are getting something non-pareil for their $. They still get the work, they still get recommended, they don't need (or oftentimes even WANT) more work nor new clients, so they hum along quite OK it seems.


    Anyway, not to digress
    Go for the Old-Skool, homies. www.2ndending.com

    (AdBlock Plus is your Friend https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/fir.../adblock-plus/)

  17. #17
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    29,913
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    well, if they think so... maybe they are penny wise and 1,5G fools. I can see someone driving to another Supermaket to save a few pennies ( cents) on the groceries while spending that kind of money for an overhaul.
    Life is just a bowl... some have cherries in it, some donít. Those who have the cherries arenít likely to share them though.

  18. #18
    Homely Saxman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    547
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    Quote Originally Posted by clarnibass View Post
    I wouldn't worry about whether it's called a repad or overhaul, only what's actually done. I've actually never seen an instrument that was in excellent condition except all ruined pads, so I've never only replaced the pads on any instrument. It is much more common to have an instrument needing a very extensive repair without replacing all pads since some are good. It is reasonable to call it a "repad" even if most of the work wasn't even replacing the pads themselves.
    I wasn't worried at all, just curious. FWIW, this tenor came to me in good condition when I bought it in June; it had a tiny dent on the bell and there was some slight realignment needed in the body tube, both of which were taken care of during the repad, but it's aged remarkably well for an instrument the previous owner used in high school and hasn't played or serviced since. The pads were far from ruined, too; they played pretty well all things considered, but they were 40 years old and original to the horn, so I had them replaced while I can still afford to do so. That said, your philosophy seems to be similar to my tech's- the way he put it, he might as well fix whatever he can while the horn's been disassembled.

    Anyway, I got my tenor back this morning, and it's playing better- and looking shinier- than ever.
    Alto: Yamaha Custom 875-EX; Vandoren Al3, Vandoren Blue Box 3.5; Lebayle AT 7, Rigotti Gold 3M
    Tenor: Selmer Mark VII; Rousseau Classic 4R, Vandoren Blue Box 4; 10mfan Robusto 7**, Vandoren Green Java 3
    I write music sometimes

  19. #19
    Distinguished SOTW Technician.
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    canberra,australia
    Posts
    1,446
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I cant think of a single tech I know who doesnt address all issues during the repad.
    Dirk zeylmans
    www.tritone.net.au
    Canberra,australia.

  20. #20
    Distinguished SOTW Technician
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Effingham IL
    Posts
    902
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: What's included in an overhaul that isn't included in a full repad?

    I have seen many competitors "repads" come across my bench where nothing but replace the pads. The instrument wasn't washed, no corks or felts replaced, nothing other than replacing the pads. The really sad part is that even that was done poorly. Now the shop doing this charges less than half what I do for a "repad", but you really get is less work for the money.

    So what do I consider a sax repad, well everything gets cleaned, that means old adhesives, hinge rods and tubes, pivot screws, the neck, body and keys, everything . The key is made to be to be as tight and smooth as I can be, all of the pad cups and tone holes are leveled. A reasonable amount of dent work is included, all posts are aligned, all hinge rods and hinge tubes are straightened, the neck is fit. Springs are adjusted and replaced as needed. All adjustment corks and felts etc. are replaced, all pads replaced. Then it all gets adjusted. After a repad the sax should play better than new. If the instrument is in really bad condition it may require more than just a repad, but this all gets discussed up front. It may be a good marketing move to offer different levels of service,like repad, minor mechanical overhaul, mechanical overhaul etc. just so customers question the difference and are able to make more informed decisions. I think as long as you're clear about what is and isn't included and you give a good accurate estimate of turnaround time and price up front, then it's all good.
    Mike Reed

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
VigLink badge